Toronto 16 York | 154.83m | 32s | Cadillac Fairview | a—A

TOareaFan said:
As much as that is supportive of the spec build...it also raises the question...."if that is so, why are you not able to secure a lead tenant or two out of that demand?"....no?
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Prospective tenants tend to float around until there's a concrete plan to build one of the towers. Usually once that anchor tenant signs to get the building under construction, many other tenants flood to sign as well. This is just skipping one of those steps. I wouldn't worry.

maestro said:
That's pretty damn scary as both are pretty bubbly right now.
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Why is it that every time an industry is doing very well, we call it a bubble? I don't think there's a bubble in those sectors, just growth - generated from unique circumstances that position Toronto very well.

If I were a betting man, I'd say we could likely see Bay Park Centre Phase I, the Well and possibly Union Square under construction by the close of 17. There are strong rumours swirling that Oxford may announce a new iteration of Oxford Place - focusing on an expansion of the MTCC and a new office tower(s).
 
Filip said:
Prospective tenants tend to float around until there's a concrete plan to build one of the towers. Usually once that anchor tenant signs to get the building under construction, many other tenants flood to sign as well. This is just skipping one of those steps. I wouldn't worry.
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I am not worried......simply making the observation that with all those tenants floating around, it would seem that building on spec is not necessary. Certainly if they were a non-pension fund owner and they were saying to a lender "finance this building on spec...there are a ton of tenants just waiting for this building"....they would be met with the response "well then, it should not be that hard to pre-lease some of that space".
 
Filip said:
Why is it that every time an industry is doing very well, we call it a bubble? I don't think there's a bubble in those sectors, just growth - generated from unique circumstances that position Toronto very well.

If I were a betting man, I'd say we could likely see Bay Park Centre Phase I, the Well and possibly Union Square under construction by the close of 17. There are strong rumours swirling that Oxford may announce a new iteration of Oxford Place - focusing on an expansion of the MTCC and a new office tower(s).
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Who says? And, unique circumstance compared to other Canadian markets? Sorry but, the amount of venture capital being thrown into real estate and tech across Canada with little discourse in the hopes of hitting it big is undeniably bubbly. Aren't you with Nesbitt anyways? It's does serve you well to believe this is all sustainable, natural growth.

This also comes at the expense of those not related to real estate or tech. I find that extremely unfortunate for our future.
 
TOareaFan said:
As much as that is supportive of the spec build...it also raises the question...."if that is so, why are you not able to secure a lead tenant or two out of that demand?"....no?
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They probably are at an impass over the lease terms. CF most likely did not want to offer the discount to the lead tenant that is normally offered.

There are also a lot of non-lead tenants that desire space in this area. Even finding 2 or 3 floors together is almost impossible right now. A lead tenant needs 2000 employees. These are few and far between. Lots of tenants need space for 500 employees.
 
muller877 said:
They probably are at an impass over the lease terms. CF most likely did not want to offer the discount to the lead tenant that is normally offered.

There are also a lot of non-lead tenants that desire space in this area. Even finding 2 or 3 floors together is almost impossible right now. A lead tenant needs 2000 employees. These are few and far between. Lots of tenants need space for 500 employees.
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Sure...but, again, my point is if they were not self financing they would be told to roll up their sleeves and sign up something north of 50% of the space in preleasing....whether it was with one massive tenant or a bunch of smaller ones. Saying the market is awash with tenants looking for over 3MM s.f. in space and not pre-leasing are statements that are, to some extent, contradictory.
 
Filip said:
If I were a betting man, I'd say we could likely see Bay Park Centre Phase I, the Well and possibly Union Square under construction by the close of 17. There are strong rumours swirling that Oxford may announce a new iteration of Oxford Place - focusing on an expansion of the MTCC and a new office tower(s).
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CF grabbed the bull by the horns. No other building will be built on spec. Too much risk for a second building.

Oxford has a lot of space available at 325 Front (the 4 story building just north of the Skydome). Huge potential to create some life along Front St by bulldozing this building. Put additional convention space below grade, restaurants/retail at grade right near the Skydome and a new Intercontinental Hotel at Blue Jay and Front.

You can then in phases rebuild the old MTCC without reducing the convention space (a 2 year shut down of MTCC to rebuild would have a devastating effect on hotels and restaurants throughout downtown)

Finally they can punch underground connections between the new convention area at 325, the revamped MTCC and MTCC-S so we can finally host mega-conventions in Toronto. MTCC has about 600,000 sq ft of space and we need 1M sq ft to host the mega-conventions.

Oxford would probably build a deck over the tracks in exchange for density and the ability to tunnel under the tracks to connect the convention centers together.
 
maestro said:
Who says? And, unique circumstance compared to other Canadian markets? Sorry but, the amount of venture capital being thrown into real estate and tech across Canada with little discourse in the hopes of hitting it big is undeniably bubbly. Aren't you with Nesbitt anyways? It's does serve you well to believe this is all sustainable, natural growth.

This also comes at the expense of those not related to real estate or tech. I find that extremely unfortunate for our future.
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We are talking about the same thing, right? Banks aren't announcing record profits because of mortgages and they're certainly not growing into tech themselves because of it.

Fintech is revolutionizing the way banks will operate in the future. Payments and transactional banking is no longer the domain of the traditional bank. The Canadian institutions have seen the writings on the wall. Toronto's expertise in the financial sector and its massive tech footprint is turning the city into one of the globe's primary fintech centres. The growth is palpable.

There's some truly innovative stuff coming out of Toronto right now and it's driving a huge amount of jobs. The city is really prospering against any metrics.

Thomson Reuters has repatriated their CEO, CFO among other senior roles to Toronto. They are hiring 400 well paid tech workers. They are looking to add another 1,100 by 2020. That's just one story. There's a lot of confidence in Toronto and the Toronto market.

And no I have never worked for Nesbitt or a broker.
 
muller877 said:
CF grabbed the bull by the horns. No other building will be built on spec. Too much risk for a second building.

Oxford has a lot of space available at 325 Front (the 4 story building just north of the Skydome). Huge potential to create some life along Front St by bulldozing this building. Put additional convention space below grade, restaurants/retail at grade right near the Skydome and a new Intercontinental Hotel at Blue Jay and Front.

You can then in phases rebuild the old MTCC without reducing the convention space (a 2 year shut down of MTCC to rebuild would have a devastating effect on hotels and restaurants throughout downtown)

Finally they can punch underground connections between the new convention area at 325, the revamped MTCC and MTCC-S so we can finally host mega-conventions in Toronto. MTCC has about 600,000 sq ft of space and we need 1M sq ft to host the mega-conventions.

Oxford would probably build a deck over the tracks in exchange for density and the ability to tunnel under the tracks to connect the convention centers together.
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Agreed. CF did it because they were furthest along. Shovel ready so to say.

Bay Park Centre is likely next.
 
Filip said:
Agreed. CF did it because they were furthest along. Shovel ready so to say.

Bay Park Centre is likely next.
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Not really. They're zoned for a building of a different size and don't yet have SPA. They're 6 months to a year from construction from this announcement by my estimation.

Allied has also rumored that they're close to securing a tenant at Union Centre. Whether this will be enough to bring the project to fruition is another matter...
 
ProjectEnd said:
Not really. They're zoned for a building of a different size and don't yet have SPA. They're 6 months to a year from construction from this announcement by my estimation.
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Is it possible that there was just a miscommunication about the square footage somewhere and that the zoning is actually in place for what they intend to build? Also, is it possible that they have started the process to get their SPA but it just isn't issued yet?
 
ProjectEnd said:
Well it's +/- 100,000sf off so that's doubtful.

Also, you have to submit for SPA which this project has yet to do so, in short, no, it hasn't been issued yet.
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Do you think they might start construction and try to get the extra square footage while under construction? There have been a few towers that were granted increases while under construction. It would save them time.
 
Strange situation then. I remember that on their old website they were advertising the building at about this square footage. They advertised a range of about 700k to 800k. I forget the exact numbers. I assumed they had the zoning if they were advertising it for so long.
 
I remember them applying for some permits not many months ago... Maybe that was it? Either way, giving themselves 4 months to groundbreaking is plenty of time to snap an anchor tenant and complete some paperwork. Didn't they get a shoring permit or am I mistaken?
 
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