1233 Queen East | ?m | 8s

[pier50]

Congratulation Toronto on your new subway cars, they are a thing of beauty!

As a Montreal subway fan (see http://metrodemontreal.com) I find that the modern design is appropriate for the look of the existing subway system. I also like the traditional gray metal color that reflect the old cars and is now a tradition for the city. Tasteful, appropriate, robust, hope I get to use it daily if I get to move there for a few years. I can tell that these will give years of good service to your amazing city. .

The Montreal subway is only 8 feet in width, it was a decision based on the fact that the population is smaller in Montreal and a cost saving strategy for future development. It was assumed at the time that the way to increase capacity would be to increase the speed of the cars (was that wise?) which is what will/may happen with the new cars scheduled to start appearing beginning of 2014. It's seven years behind schedule following complications in negotiating the contract with Bombadier/Alstrom.

 

[nfitz]

The Montreal subway is only 8 feet in width, it was a decision based on the fact that the population is smaller in Montreal and a cost saving strategy for future development.

With the shear number of lines projected for Montreal, smaller trains may well have made sense, if they'd actually built what was proposed.

But based on population? Montreal was still the bigger city (including suburbs) until the 1970s when Toronto's big population boom started, and Montreal's economic stagnation began under the Parti Quebecois.

 

[sixrings]

I definitely do NOT want blank seats like the above photo. Cold and slippery for me.

i rather have blank seats. at least you know they can be reasonably cleaned.

 

[pier50]

But based on population? Montreal was still the bigger city (including suburbs) until the 1970s when Toronto's big population boom started, and Montreal's economic stagnation began under the Parti Quebecois.

Smaller in population as compared with cities big enough to afford to go deeply in debts LOL As it turns out the cost of extending the Mtl subway is exorbitant despite it's smaller width. The latest addition of 3 stations accross the river to Laval came at a cost of a wooping $803 million dollars in 2007. Yet extension of the blue and yellow lines are still in the plans. I'd say a lesson learned (and lessons are learned very very slowly around here) is the inefficiency of extending in low density suburbs.

 

[nfitz]

Smaller in population as compared with cities big enough to afford to go deeply in debts

Montreal's debt limits are much larger than Toronto, because of different provincial legislation. Though Montreal's debt is far larger too - Toronto has relatively low debt compared to similar sized cities, but is restricted from increase debt much more than is already planned for the Spadina subway construction, and various LRT projects.

As it turns out the cost of extending the Mtl subway is exorbitant despite it's smaller width. The latest addition of 3 stations accross the river to Laval came at a cost of a wooping $803 million dollars in 2007.

$803 million? AMT is reporting it cost $745 million. $803 million was the budget, and it came in $58 million under budget, at a cost of only $143 million/km! Toronto's Sheppard line opened in 2002 costing $1-billion for 5.5 km about $180 million/km, but with a half-decade less inflation. The current Toronto Spadina line extension is costing $2.6 billion for 8.6 km - over $300 million a km. Today's Globe and Mail estimated that the underground section of current Eglinton line project is costing closer to $400 million a km (have to dig out the article - doesn't seem to be in the electronic version).

And the price tag on the new Second Avenue Line in New York City is somewhere around $1 billion/km.

Montreal Metro construction costs seem quite reasonable to me ...

 

[pier50]

Montreal Metro construction costs seem quite reasonable to me ...

I didn't realize the cost per km in Tor., good to have an outside point of view, the general feeling here was that the cost had gotten completely out of hand. Is it all the infrastructure the line has to go through in Toronto that brings the price to $300 million a km? The system is quite deep in Mtl, it may be saving money in the long run?

I've been looking a bit about the TTC extension and it looks quite an amazing project, hope there is less corruption in your construction than here or else expect the price tag to go up LOL

I've been looking up the stats of the new TTC cars to compare capacity. With 64 seats per car and 199 standing spaces, and considering the trains have 6 cars, that gives a capacity of 1578. The old MR-73 cars of the STM have can hold 1260 passengers (360 seats and 900 standing spaces, the train is 9 cars long). They plan to add 180 standing spaces with the new cars with a similar open car concept. I found out that the stations are 50 feet longer in the Mtl system and that may be how the capacity might be closer to the Tor. system.

 

[nfitz]

I didn't realize the cost per km in Tor., good to have an outside point of view, the general feeling here was that the cost had gotten completely out of hand.

It only appeared to get completely out of hand, because the first cost estimates after it was announced, were completely out to lunch - at $43 million per kilometre. From what I heard, the Quebec government massively interfered with the estimating process in a way guaranteed to create an unreasonably low number - $179 million. Presumably there was some political gain for someone at the time ....

Is it all the infrastructure the line has to go through in Toronto that brings the price to $300 million a km? The system is quite deep in Mtl, it may be saving money in the long run?

Montreal also only uses a single tunnel, and it's normally in bedrock. Toronto has to use twin tunnels in overburden. Much more expensive. The Toronto cost also includes other stuff, like trains. There were no trains in the last Montreal extension, as they could surplus existing rolling stock - on the other hand, they added a 3rd platform to Henri-Bourassa, tunnelled under the back river, built a commuter rail station, and built a new underground garage.

Others of course, will tell you construction in Toronto is so expensive because of the unions. Of course, there's no construction unions in Quebec

I've been looking a bit about the TTC extension and it looks quite an amazing project, hope there is less corruption in your construction than here or else expect the price tag to go up LOL

There's very little corruption in the construction industry here in comparison with Montreal - and when there is, it's more the typical contractor paying off someone, or two bidders colluding, than the organized crime stuff that happens in Quebec. Still, the under-budget Laval metro extension, seems to suggest that was relatively corruption-free as well.

I found out that the stations are 50 feet longer in the Mtl system and that may be how the capacity might be closer to the Tor. system.

I haven't looked recently, but I think the platforms are about the same size. But here, there's about 50 feet of empty platform when the train pulls in. Unlike Montreal, which has been running computer-controlled trains for about 35 years or so (with the operator simply closing the doors and pressing a button to let the computer take over, before going back to reading his paper), the trains here are still driven (all the acceleration and braking) by an operator ... so the trains are somewhat inconsistent in where they stop. There is talk of adding a short 7th car to the new subway trains, to increase capacity once the line is automated, later this decade.

 

[MetroMan]

I admit I don't ride the subway that often but I've yet to see the new one. How many sets of cars are running? Odds tell me that I should have been on one by now or at least seen one pulling away from a station or passing me by in a tunnel, but nope.

When are more scheduled to arrive?

 

[noctis]

Red is a TTC colour -- teal most definitely isn't.

I didn't say you have to leave it teal, I said you could paint them...

 

[noctis]

What strikes me about this picture is that the standard of cleanliness on this train is unthinkable in 2012 Toronto. The floors look like they're actually polished.

best part of all, it's like this every single day. when was the last time you saw a ttc train, bus, streetcar look this clean =p

 

[noctis]

The colours should represent the line it's travelling on, like the H5's. H6's should have had green.

totally agreed...but what are the chances of that happening...

 

[M II A II R II K]

London has it but probably makes more sense there since there are so many different lines and colours so there'd be less confusion. Wouldn't have that confusion here.

 

[Tulse]

Colour-coding the train interiors would, of course, in principle limit what line the trains could run on, and thus reduce operational flexibility.

 

[M II A II R II K]

Perhaps, but we never saw any H5 or H6 cross breeding.

 

[smallspy]

I admit I don't ride the subway that often but I've yet to see the new one. How many sets of cars are running? Odds tell me that I should have been on one by now or at least seen one pulling away from a station or passing me by in a tunnel, but nope.

When are more scheduled to arrive?

There are 11 trains that have been placed into service with another 2 ready soon. It isn't uncommon now for me to see 3 or 4 trains during the day, and that's only from St. Clair West to Downsview. Trains are arriving every 10 days or so - or at least they should start again soon after the Christmas break.

Perhaps, but we never saw any H5 or H6 cross breeding.

If by cross-breeding you mean coupling them together to form a train, than yes we did. Maybe you just didn't see it or remember it happening.

It is also not completely uncommon for a YUS train to end up on the B-D or vice-versa should there be a problem on the other line, although admittedly it is not as common as it used to be.

Dan
Toronto, Ont.