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1233 Queen East | ?m | 8s



A presentation was made by the project manager for the new subway trains to the commissioners on January 25, 2006.

A team of TTC staff as well representatives from Bombardier Thunder Bay plant visited both Hong Kong and China in the fall of 2005 to review 4 lines that are currently using the proposed new TTC subway trains now.

From the presentation of slides and video, I like the train that was made in Korea.

People are not going to like this, but the new trains will be coming with bench seating only and they will a small curve in them. Centre Poles are being reinstalled with other poles connecting to the bench seats. There is a possibility that the doors will be move one way or another to accommodate the 17.5 inch seating arrangement. The seats will be one piece unite with a non slide material on the seat as well on the backs. This means there will be no individual seating like there is now. I said this was going to happen a few months ago.

There will be 2 areas where bikes/wheelchairs/strollers/bunny buggy can be place in each car and they will be at the gangway area. I have recommended to the project manager that any seating in this area be limited to individual single jump seats that will be in the folded up position at all times unless a rider push the seat down to seat down on. He like the idea as it is a less costly method compare to what is in place on Orion VII.

There will be only one long window not the current 2 between the doors to get the maximum of lighting in the cars. It will take up the full height of the car where it can.

All cars will come with a LED system showing all the stations on the line. It will tell the rider which direction the train is going by flashing the lights of the stations in front of the current station. All stations that have been passed will be a solid color. The next station will have a larger flashing yellow compare to the remaining stations on the line. It will also tell you what side of the train that the doors will open on at the next stop. If the train services a station that is service by another line, the LED Screen will display all the stations on that line also and show the direction of them.

There are to be LCD screens at the doors tell riders about safety issues. (this is not needed)

Each car will be outfitted with a 2 way communication system with the cab car to tell the crew what the problem is taking place on that car. This will allow better response to the problem on the car by getting medical team or enforcement team rolling before the train reaches the next station.

If a train has to be evacuated in the tunnel, it will take 25 seconds for the front end cab unite to open up and deploy a fold up ramp to off load the riders through the cab unite. It is stated that it will take 24 minutes to off load a full loaded train from one end only. (I have some concern here.) It will take about the same time to fold the ramp up and close the cab unite end and to get the train underway. This was shown on a video.

First train for testing will be delivery in the fall of 2008 with the official run in the fall of 2009.

There will be no mockup car for the current T1’ showing the new seat arrangement because of safety reasons. I see no safety reason for not doing it.

There will be a ¼ full mockup car coming late spring or early summer to be put on display at various locations for riders input. No reason to do this since everyone knows where the final design is going.

There will be a public contest to name the new trains.

At present time, TTC employees are getting update either by newsletter or website on the new trains and they are requested to provide information how the train can be improved on.

RFP is to take place in April with contract being awarded in October 2006.

I still feel TTC will not be getting the best price with the contract is going to Bombardier based on the current arrangement.

Wilson yard maintains buildings will have to be modified to accommodate the new train’s first follow by Greenwood. Greenwood will take some doing, due to the layout and the size of the land.

All cars will have scrolling screen tell what the next station will be as well the talking system.

Things are changing from month to month for this new train and it will be on the cutting edge when it gets built. It is supposed to open up a new market for North America.



It seems like for the first time in history the TTC might be buying an off the shelf model for its subway trains. I think the first reaction that people will have against this is that the train will not look and feel "Toronto" like the other cars (ex. no front-back seating and no more railfan windows). However, given the recent discussion over the "sardine effect" and overcrowding, it's about time that new trains that have higher capacities than existing trains be brought in to help solve the crowding problem.


Movia train for Guangzhou Metro

I've been on a Movia train in Shenzhen. The Chinese Movias look quite cheaply built to me, so if TTC wants to get these trains, Bombardier would have to give them a huge redesign to fit North American tastes.


K-Stock (Korean Stock), Hong Kong MTR



I personally like the K-Stock (my Hong Kong bias working again! ). They offer a really quiet, smooth ride. The major drawback to the K-Stock is that the train doors open by first pushing out the side of the train, and then sliding away from the doorway (the doors are designed to be flush with the side of the train). Despite the MTR putting warning stickers on the sides of the doorway, some passengers have gotten their fingers amputated when they stuck their fingers out the side of the doorway and the closing doors slammed on them. Ouch!
Link to MTR K-Stock video


Electronic Route Map, MTR


MTR's Telecite system

Very happy to see that the TTC is looking at getting the electronic route map for the new trains!

There are to be LCD screens at the doors tell riders about safety issues. (this is not needed)

I disagree. Firstly the LCD screens (which I think will be a version of Montreal Metro's Telecite) won't be used solely to remind passengers about safety. It's also used for advertising, which will help increase TTC's revenue, while having the potential of reducing the amount of ad postering in the trains. It can also be used as a news ticker, and hopefully this will be able to reduce the amount of newspaper trash on the trains. Finally the Telecite complements the automated station announcements and the electronic route map to announce the next stop, especially for those who are standing too far from the route map to see which station the train is at.


Sounds like a pretty huge leap for the TTC from North American to Euro/Asian style rolling stock. I wonder if the exteriors will remain bare metal, as is the custom in large NA systems. I doubt it, based on this description. In that case, what colour? Maybe red in an homage to the system's original trains?

Now we just need an Asian-sized network!


Additional details from the Globe:

Dr. Gridlock
TTC steering toward high-tech new trains

Monday, January 30, 2006 Page A9

For Torontonians used to the no-frills aesthetic of the TTC's current subway cars -- boxes of rivet-covered grey metal that recall the Second World War -- the next generation of vehicles in the city's transit tunnels could be a shock to the system. In a good way.

Still in the design-concept phase, the new cars will replace most of the 30-year-old H-4 and H-5 cars, starting in 2009. They will run alongside the newer T-1 cars.

The exterior will look something like Bombardier's sleek Movia cars running in the Chinese city of Shenzhen, where TTC officials recently paid a visit.

The details are still being worked out, but Toronto's cars will have a similar curved, modern exterior. This rivet-free design is also easier to clean. And welding, rather than riveting, produces a lighter but stronger outer shell, explained TTC project manager Chris Heald.

Mr. Heald, a 33-year-old Briton with experience buying vehicles for Virgin Trains, is in charge of the $755-million project and is steering the TTC's talks with Bombardier, which is expected to build the 234 new subway cars at its plant in Thunder Bay.

A sleek exterior, of course, matters little to the subway riders who will be inside. But the TTC also has plans to bring some of the interior bells and whistles common on transit systems in Europe and Asia to Toronto.

"T-1 was cutting edge, introducing new technologies 10 or 15 years ago. And now, looking forward, we're looking at where the world's gone in that 10 or 15 years," said Mr. Heald, who led a recent TTC delegation to visit four transit systems in Hong Kong and China.

Proposed gadgets include subway route maps that light up, telling riders what direction they are going in and what station they are approaching.

Message screens may also display the next station, as will automated audio announcements.

Small LCD screens -- not the ad-laden TV screens on station platforms -- would display safety messages. Instead of the current passenger alarm strip, riders in distress could talk to TTC staff on the train via an emergency two-way intercom. Closed-circuit television cameras would watch over passengers as well. Evacuation ramps at the nose and tail of the train would halve the time it takes to get off a train in an emergency.

But the biggest change for riders will be physical layout of the cars. Passengers will be able to walk freely between cars, which will be permanently connected in six-car trains. With so much concern about overcrowding on the system, this innovation actually increases capacity on each train by 8 per cent, or about 80 extra people on a six-car train with an average rush-hour load of 1,000 passengers.

The cars will also have "perimeter seating," with bench-like seats lining the walls rather than the awkward conversation corners the TTC has now. This makes it easier to move around, and easier to ride without "standing over people," Mr. Heald said. But the cars will still have the same number of total seats as the current crop.

The new cars will also be quieter, Mr. Heald promised. Since they are put together as permanent six-car trains, the engines can be distributed better. And the TTC is looking at a new brake-lubrication system that may tone done the squealing.

The TTC is working with Bombardier to put together a life-size mock-up of a quarter of the proposed subway car, to put on public display at Davisville and Union stations, likely in May or June, for public comment.

One downside: the TTC's subway repair facilities at Wilson Station are built to fix trains with four cars, and need a $50-million upgrade to be made big enough to handle the six-car trains.

But, Mr. Heald said, because the new cars are cheaper, even with this added bill and all of the added gadgetry, buying the new ones will cost the same as buying a whole new batch of the current T-1s.

Dr. Gridlock appears Mondays. Send comments or questions




I guess this would push the Sheppard line to use six car trains eventually. I wonder which will come first, the eventual retirement of T-1s or Sheppard line ridership requiring 6 car trains?


Sheppard line ridership requiring 6 car trains?
T1's should last another 20 years. There is some thought that Sheppard should start bumping frequencies today.

Sheppard could probably fill a 6 car train pretty easily at 3 minute headways in 2015 without any problems.


If the TTC delegation visited both Hong Kong and Shenzhen, I wonder if they took a ride on the KCR trains that run between the two cities. Now these are sleek trains...





KCR is in a LOT of hot water right now thanks to shoddy maintenance work. That's one lesson TTC learned the hard way.




I know... it's just another reason why KCR is being merged with MTR.


"I guess this would push the Sheppard line to use six car trains eventually. I wonder which will come first, the eventual retirement of T-1s or Sheppard line ridership requiring 6 car trains?"

People are occasionally left behind at Yonge station right now with 4 cars, but most of this rush hour crowding can be wiped out simply by upping the frequency by a minute or two so that Sheppard trains can be allowed to carry away people as fast as Yonge trains can bring them in. During some off-peak times, though, it could get by with 1 car trains (but so could the Spadina line north of Yorkdale), and there should be a stop request button for Bessarion. Sheppard is still far and away a rush hour/commuter line.

Ridership on the 190 continues to visibly grow - buses regularly leave people behind at both Don Mills and STC stations during rush hour and turnover along the route can be very high (the 190 rocket is more than a point to point route). If the Sheppard line is extended it will have to have 6 cars, but I suspect a commercial teleportation service will be up and running before a subway reaches Agincourt station.


I see no problems with bench seating, in fact, I think its more optimal, and allow people to spread out easier during peak hours through out the train instead of bulking up in the center, and not having to be impeded by the 'conversational' setup of the older format seating.


I like these HK trains, however, my only concern is with the AC units. Using these trains, I noticed that the AC doesn't flow through unless the train is moving. Hence, at station stops, the AC kinda evaporates - which isn't really a problem in HK. In Toronto, due to our system, there are delays where the trains hold up - which could get very hot and sticky in the summer.


Using these trains, I noticed that the AC doesn't flow through unless the train is moving. Hence, at station stops, the AC kinda evaporates

Yes, I've noticed that too in the MTR, but only with the older Metro-Cammell trains. The K-Stock doesn't appear to have the same problem.

However, Hong Kong's climate control requirements are almost opposite from Toronto's (HK trains don't need heating, for one thing), so the new Toronto trains will probably have a much different temperature control system than the MTR trains.


Nice. It doesn't have to look like the Chinese version.

This is a Movia,

and so is this

It'd be cool if we could get this with red in place of the white, and if it were shaped a bit more like the first.

Sir Novelty Fashion

^ as long as they're shiny. Not so shiny, not so good.

^^ unless they're really old, and have orange vinyl benches and giant round ceiling fans hanging down. Those work too.