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Asterix said:
But that gets back to my point - it isn't as big a deal as many seem to think it is. People seem to think that there are huge gobs of money to be made from advertising and that it could potentially solve all kinds of funding problems (from slashing fares to cleaning stations to building entire subway lines).

That simply isn't true as the TTC budget shows - $15 - $20 million dollars out of $1.4 billion and we still have complaints about wrapped buses/streetcars or re-branded stations. Pocket change or just a portion of the funds that would be raised by a single year of inflation fare hikes. Is this worthy of being an election issue?

So my question still remains, how much advertising would you as an individual TTC rider be willing to be subjected to if it meant avoiding a fare hike for one year (subsequent years would see increases as usual)?

We already know the populace likes to scream bloody murder when faced with any fare hike, even if it is entirely just to keep pace with normal and reasonable costs, so how much advertising and in-station kiosks would it take to placate this emotion? Would that same populace put up with that amount of increased commercialization?
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Gentlemen, after a few days’ absence I have now had a chance to read your posts over the last few pages and (OMG!) some of you are dangerously myopic. This thread is a discussion of “New TTC Subway Carsâ€, and it’s clear from the media coverage of the delivery of the 1st TR test car, each one will have 3 LCD TV screens…good, so let’s use ’em!

Your posts are all about “Geeze, who can we possibly get to advertise on the car-borne screens that will be able to sell their wares at the next station?â€, and “Gosh, how can we just increase the size of our little subway stations, to cram in some more kiosks?â€, and “Oh dear, maybe we should poll the riders, first†Fahget abouuuut it! Think big!

As our buddy gweed, and that fellow from Boston with the unintelligible name, was alluding to (though he didn’t have the full courage of his convictions - worrying T.O. may not “tolerate†it), try for once to look outside your little kingdom here, and see how other big city transit authorities capitalize on their valuable real estate and large daily captive audience. Like he said, look at Hong Kong’s subway, or even closer – New York’s MTA. New York’s 42nd Street shuttle subway train just ran a very successful campaign during the MLB Baseball’s post season playoffs last fall, by allowing MLB and Turner Broadcasting to wrap a few subway cars and equip them with on-board LCD TVs that played (don’t worry comrade pinkos – no audio – so you can go back to sleep for your ride) highlights of the games leading up to the World Series. Brilliant! New York lapped it up, and check out the website I pulled for you local-yokels, which is a recent interview of the Chairman of NYC’s subway, Jay Walder, boasting that for just that few weeks campaign - the transit authority raked in a cool $100M!!!. Oh yeah, you’re cleverly saying that “Sure, but that’s New York!†Well, ok, divide it by 10 - still good money for TTC for only a few weeks campaign, right?

Don’t waste time polling riders about this, or about fare increases ---- as Nike says, “just do itâ€, (but do it intelligently). This isn’t going to work as just an ad vehicle, but rather ad value to the rider! Put on news, weather, sports, whatever of large community interest. That will attract the big sponsors, like Coke, McDonalds, Nike, etc. Forget about the personal injury lawyers and Tim Hortons. Think big. This is TV, with a captive, recognizable market audience, guys!

Quit navel-gazing, Canada & Toronto; grow up and be a big city and capitalize.

Check out what New York is doing, see the url below….

http://secondavenuesagas.com/2010/11/30/interviewing-jay-walder-labor-relations-and-revenue-sources/
 
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subwayboy said:
New York’s 42nd Street shuttle subway train just ran a very successful campaign during the MLB Baseball’s post season playoffs last fall, by allowing MLB and Turner Broadcasting to wrap a few subway cars and equip them with on-board LCD TVs that played (don’t worry comrade pinkos – no audio – so you can go back to sleep for your ride) highlights of the games leading up to the World Series. Brilliant! New York lapped it up, and check out the website I pulled for you local-yokels, which is a recent interview of the Chairman of NYC’s subway, Jay Walder, boasting that for just that few weeks campaign - the transit authority raked in a cool $100M!!!. Oh yeah, you’re cleverly saying that “Sure, but that’s New York!†Well, ok, divide it by 10 - still good money for TTC for only a few weeks campaign, right?
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There have already been wrapped subway cars, both outside and complete single sponsors inside. Total annual advertising revenue still is only in the $15 - $20 million range.

With respect to Hong Kong, Toronto does not have that kind of density and I'm pretty sure provincial law does not permit the city or city agency to accumulate land for non-transit development.

The nature of the advertisers (personal injury lawyers vs McDonalds or Timmies) is driven by the cost of the advertising, not the prestige of the advertiser. Demand is low enough that personal injury lawyers can afford to advertise. Simply saying you'll only let McDonalds or Timmies in will not magically increase the rates you can charge.
 
Asterix said:
There have already been wrapped subway cars, both outside and complete single sponsors inside. Total annual advertising revenue still is only in the $15 - $20 million range.

With respect to Hong Kong, Toronto does not have that kind of density and I'm pretty sure provincial law does not permit the city or city agency to accumulate land for non-transit development.

The nature of the advertisers (personal injury lawyers vs McDonalds or Timmies) is driven by the cost of the advertising, not the prestige of the advertiser. Demand is low enough that personal injury lawyers can afford to advertise. Simply saying you'll only let McDonalds or Timmies in will not magically increase the rates you can charge.
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Your points are well taken – for old history. (although, i don't get the reference to land acquisition, where did THAT come from) My point is the advent of TV on-board the New Cars (the theme of this thread) is greatly going to increase the value of the ad revenue, if used intelligently. Did you even read the article I gave you in my previous post about New York’s experience with their new cars with TVs, and the greatly increased revenue they are experiencing?
 
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To give some of you an idea of what's being discussed, here's a 2 min. short of what American Airlines did to some subway cars in New York.

Interestingly, some of the cities presented are not American Airlines destinations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeZMOyqTf_E

To be fair, some of you may have seen the wrapped BMO cars (kinda makes me think I'm in Montreal when pass me - the blue is similar). But that pales in comparison to what this video shows can be done.
 
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DSC said:
True, but they have "partners "like British Airways and Iberia now and that is surely what they are pushing - I think they have code sharing on many of these other routes.
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Yes. In fact, American, British Airways and Iberia have a joint-venture agreement so, in effect, they operate as one entity (including profit/loss sharing) across the Atlantic. In fact, the lighted signage has BA's and Iberia's logos on them. It's just interesting given that AA has quite a number of their own desintations out of JFK. Though, I guess not enough to fill a train. AA's transatlantic policy these days is largely centered around funnelling as many people through London as possible.
 
subwayboy said:
Your points are well taken – for old history. (although, i don't get the reference to land acquisition, where did THAT come from)
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You referenced Hong Kong's subway. It is often brought up as an example of what the TTC should do since they are actually profitable due to their development income. Point is though that Toronto is not Hong Kong level development demand and the TTC is not allowed to get in the business of being a developer.

My point is the advent of TV on-board the New Cars (the theme of this thread) is greatly going to increase the value of the ad revenue, if used intelligently.
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Not saying you can't squeeze a few more dollars out of advertisers, but don't be expecting you can rescue deficits off these funds. Toronto is not New York so can you demonstrate there is advertiser demand to pump more than $5 or $10 million into new subway marketing campaigns?
 
Asterix said:
You referenced Hong Kong's subway. It is often brought up as an example of what the TTC should do since they are actually profitable due to their development income. Point is though that Toronto is not Hong Kong level development demand and the TTC is not allowed to get in the business of being a developer.



Not saying you can't squeeze a few more dollars out of advertisers, but don't be expecting you can rescue deficits off these funds. Toronto is not New York so can you demonstrate there is advertiser demand to pump more than $5 or $10 million into new subway marketing campaigns?
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We don't know till we try. I said nothing about acquiring real estate or developing it. I'm simply saying use what we have or are about to have (with the New Cars - TV screens) to our best advantage - like other BIG CITIES do. Check out HK, Beijing, Sao Paolo, NYC, Berlin, Seoul, just to name a few - they all have on-board TV screens and are making a mint using them intelligently. (Did you even read the article i posted?) I know we're not New York, but we are a function of their numbers and size, and yes 5 or 10 million I think is doable, when NYC rereportedly makes 100M in just a few weeks for one ad campaign on one of their lines.
 
subwayboy said:
We don't know till we try. I said nothing about acquiring real estate or developing it. I'm simply saying use what we have or are about to have (with the New Cars - TV screens) to our best advantage - like other BIG CITIES do. Check out HK, Beijing, Sao Paolo, NYC, Berlin, Seoul, just to name a few - they all have on-board TV screens and are making a mint using them intelligently. (Did you even read the article i posted?) I know we're not New York, but we are a function of their numbers and size, and yes 5 or 10 million I think is doable, when NYC rereportedly makes 100M in just a few weeks for one ad campaign on one of their lines.
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The MTA makes just over $125 Million a year from all advertising in total. You really think TBS paid $100 million to wrap a subway car for a few weeks?
 
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subwayboy said:
We don't know till we try. I said nothing about acquiring real estate or developing it. I'm simply saying use what we have or are about to have (with the New Cars - TV screens) to our best advantage - like other BIG CITIES do. Check out HK, Beijing, Sao Paolo, NYC, Berlin, Seoul, just to name a few - they all have on-board TV screens and are making a mint using them intelligently. (Did you even read the article i posted?) I know we're not New York, but we are a function of their numbers and size, and yes 5 or 10 million I think is doable, when NYC rereportedly makes 100M in just a few weeks for one ad campaign on one of their lines.
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Yes, I understand you have an obsession with TV screens in the subways. By all means, put them in. Program them with whatever you want.

All I'm saying is these TV screens are not printing presses and the amount of revenue you will be bringing in will not even be enough to put off a $.10 fare hike by one year.

And think just a bit objectively about your $100 million claim. What does that figure work out to per rider eyeball? What other advertising campaign would pay anywhere near that rate? What possible economic model do you think this would make sense to the guys signing the cheques?
 
subwayboy said:
Sir, these aren't MY numbers; did you not read the article I posted (post 1610)?
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Yes I read it. You need to read it again carefully.

We’ve done some really neat things in terms of advertising that are bringing real money in, and I think that the win-win on this is where you’re doing some things that both improve the ambiance of the subway environment and the bus environment but also raise some money for the transit system. My favorite one was the wrap on the train for TBS with the television screens. I think that’s a great example of breaking down some barrriers. We’re bringing about $100 million in doing that.
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He mentioned the TBS wrap as "favourite one" just as an aside to the discussion of advertising revenue as a total. Read the actual story about the TBS car linked in the quote. IUt's just 3 cars on a two stop shuttle line. It says the value of the deal was not disclosed, but that MTA total advertising revenue was $128 million last year. We know $100 million of it didn't come from that.

What ever happened with GO's TV screen project? As far as I can tell it's been completely abandoned and all the installed screens are deactivated. Sure sounds like it was actually a money loser.
 
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subwayboy said:
Sir, these aren't MY numbers; did you not read the article I posted (post 1610)?
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Did you? The $100M was an off-the-cuff estimated sum total from those types of ads throughout the entire year. He made no mention of any additional revenue attributable to LCD screens.

Maybe the screens will bump the rates a bit on TTC ads, but it's such a small amount of money I'm concerned it's worth the investment (let alone the maintenace hassles). But then I'm the guy who would gladly pay a bit more to be completely ad-free.
 
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