Toronto 1 Eglinton East | 211.25m | 65s | Davpart | Hariri Pontarini

[innsertnamehere]

Have you seen the vacancy rates for office space downtown? When demand is high and supply is thinning, costs rise. That makes a market for good quality office space at lower rates, and Y&E is prime for that due to what fuels downtown: good transit access. In this case, it's from two intersecting rapid transit lines in the N-S and E-W directions, but what it doesn't have is direct access from the GO; getting there means transferring to the TTC, adding time and cost to commuters. But it would serve intra-Toronto office talent well, and it's why I took your point on AAA-class demand and walked back my statement a bit.

The problem with Y+E is that it is very difficult to get to for regional commuters. Highway access is non-existant, and while transit access is good, it isn't great. And you need great to generate new office growth.

The only places you are seeing office growth are either places like Oakville or Mississauga with great highway access to large swaths of the GTA, or downtown around Union which allows people to commute from literally anywhere in the GTA within a reasonable time frame.

 

[salsa]

Have you seen the vacancy rates for office space downtown? When demand is high and supply is thinning, costs rise. That makes a market for good quality office space at lower rates, and Y&E is prime for that due to what fuels downtown

Great. Now where are all the development applications for office buildings at Y&E?

 

[sixrings]

The problem with Y+E is that it is very difficult to get to for regional commuters. Highway access is non-existant, and while transit access is good, it isn't great. And you need great to generate new office growth.

The only places you are seeing office growth are either places like Oakville or Mississauga with great highway access to large swaths of the GTA, or downtown around Union which allows people to commute from literally anywhere in the GTA within a reasonable time frame.

yet STC is a ghost town office building wise

 

[maestro]

STC's problems are being too far east from the metro's population centres. 401/HWy 7 grabbed the role as the regional office centre in the 1990s and there's no need for another particularly as far east as STC.

 

[Amare]

I dont understand why if Yonge and Bloor, which has two subways lines, doesn't have the most office space we would expect a huge amount of office here just because it intersects with two transit lines.

The Bloor and Yonge area has more office space than people think. It also doesn't have big plots of land available for office development without razing the existing retail space.

The problem with Y+E is that it is very difficult to get to for regional commuters. Highway access is non-existant, and while transit access is good, it isn't great. And you need great to generate new office growth.

The only places you are seeing office growth are either places like Oakville or Mississauga with great highway access to large swaths of the GTA, or downtown around Union which allows people to commute from literally anywhere in the GTA within a reasonable time frame.

I dont buy that reasoning at all. If great access to highways and rapid transit really attracted office development, than why has Etobicoke City Centre around Kipling and Islington sat dormant for all of these years? The 427, Milton GO line, and Bloor-Danforth line are all within arms reach in that area. Highway access and Rapid transit availability definitely play a very big role, but they are not the sole reasons why office development would be attracted to an area.

The reason why the downtown core has been so attractive is due in large part to the increased amount of available talent that has moved into the downtown area to be closer to work. That talent has primarily been a younger cohort who are less willing to endure endless hours of commuting out to the depths of the suburbs.. Why people keep mentioning Yonge-Eglinton is because the demographics in that area closely mirror that of the downtown core, and i'd even wager that Y-E has a slightly younger populous compared to the downtown core. Add that to the fact that it is about a 10-15 min ride to downtown Toronto, and that makes it even more attractive. Then add that rapid transit is there, with more coming and you get the idea. These same people would be willing to stay and live around the area if there were more opportunities around the area.

 

[interchange42]

The Bloor and Yonge area has more office space than people think. It also doesn't have big plots of land available for office development without razing the existing retail space.


I dont buy that reasoning at all. If great access to highways and rapid transit really attracted office development, than why has Etobicoke City Centre around Kipling and Islington sat dormant for all of these years? The 427, Milton GO line, and Bloor-Danforth line are all within arms reach in that area. Highway access and Rapid transit availability definitely play a very big role, but they are not the sole reasons why office development would be attracted to an area.

The reason why the downtown core has been so attractive is due in large part to the increased amount of available talent that has moved into the downtown area to be closer to work. That talent has primarily been a younger cohort who are less willing to endure endless hours of commuting out to the depths of the suburbs.. Why people keep mentioning Yonge-Eglinton is because the demographics in that area closely mirror that of the downtown core, and i'd even wager that Y-E has a slightly younger populous compared to the downtown core. Add that to the fact that it is about a 10-15 min ride to downtown Toronto, and that makes it even more attractive. Then add that rapid transit is there, with more coming and you get the idea. These same people would be willing to stay and live around the area if there were more opportunities around the area.

Commuters coming in via GO do not want to transfer to the TTC to go to an office if they can help it: they want to get off their train and walk to work. Anybody taking a Milton train to Kipling GO would have to transfer to an infrequent West Mall or East Mall bus and ride for 10 to 15 minutes to get to one of the office blocks near Burnhamthorpe and the 427, and those Miltontonians or Meadowvalians are the types to own a car for such travel. 20 somethings fresh out of school are not amongst those generally looking to move to one of the isolating, car dependent outer suburbs and then commute to an isolated, car dependent inner suburb for their work.

In the case of Yonge and Eg, no, there's no rush to build offices here (the plan to extend the Yonge Eglinton Centre towers upwards has been on indefinite hold for years now), and the Planning Department has to hold every developer's feet to the fire here to ensure that replacement office space is built. (No rezoning approval ere without the replacement space.) For sure there will be gradual absorption of what's built in the area, but by and large it's Downtown that's in the sights of major firms' relocation plans these days as that's where the demographic that they want to employ is telling them that they want to work.

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[Midtown Urbanist]

Any speculation on here for why St. Clair and Yonge remains a strong office market then?

 

[Amare]

Commuters coming in via GO do not want to transfer to the TTC to go to an office if they can help it: they want to get off their train and walk to work. Anybody taking a Milton train to Kipling GO would have to transfer to an infrequent West Mall or East Mall bus and ride for 10 to 15 minutes to get to one of the office blocks near Burnhamthorpe and the 427, and those Miltontonians or Meadowvalians are the types to own a car for such travel. 20 somethings fresh out of school are not amongst those generally looking to move to one of the isolating, car dependent outer suburbs and then commute to an isolated, car dependent inner suburb for their work.

In the case of Yonge and Eg, no, there's no rush to build offices here (the plan to extend the Yonge Eglinton Centre towers upwards has been on indefinite hold for years now), and the Planning Department has to hold every developer's feet to the fire here to ensure that replacement office space is built. (No rezoning approval ere without the replacement space.) For sure there will be gradual absorption of what's built in the area, but by and large it's Downtown that's in the sights of major firms' relocation plans these days as that's where the demographic that they want to employ is telling them that they want to work.

42

In Etobicoke City Centre's case I was referring more to the area around Kipling and Islington stations, not so much the "current" Etobicoke City Centre around Burnhamthrope and the 427. My point was that commuters dont have to transfer to the TTC bus to get to the offices around those locations, and the access to the 427 is right around the corner, but yet it still languishes in attracting office development.

On the other hand Y-E would be able to attract far more office development despite the fact there is no highway or GO Transit access, and the reason would be due to its proximity to the downtown core and its relatively young population demographics. The reason why it hasnt to date is because there is still suitable land to develop downtown, and once that runs out East Harbour and Y-E would be the next immediate desirable locations. However even though that's the case, the city should be making its best effort to protect some land for future employment around the area now (and i'm not just referring to the Yonge-Eglinton Centre complex where the Canadian Tire headquarters are currently located). The current trend of replacing office space 1 for 1 isnt enough in my opinion.

 

[interchange42]

I believe that what you are asking the City to do at Y&E would require them to create a new Secondary Plan for the area following a study of office space needs. That plan would likely be challenged by developers appealing to LPAT, so would take a some years to come into effect assuming the LPAT appeal fails. (Municipal law experts: do I have this right?) Without a new plan in place, all they can do for the time being is require the 1 for 1 replacement of current office space.

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[Midtown Urbanist]

Right, it isn't feasible, especially in the short term. The city could also create site-specific regulations but that would also be appealed to the LPAT.

But it is a lost opportunity if you ask me. The long-term all-day vibrancy (and viability of local shops and restaurants) of the area will depend on an adequate number of office workers being present during working hours. I am hoping that the Canada Square redevelopment will come with lots of office.

 

[interchange42]

Agreed to all of that!

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[Edward Skira]

The Bloor and Yonge area has more office space than people think. It also doesn't have big plots of land available for office development without razing the existing retail space.

Condos are having no problem doing that. I'm sure they'd be building office here if the economics were favourable but clearly they are not.

Anything close to Union is booming. Everything else where I'd like to see office being built along Yonge (Bloor, St Clair, Eglinton, Sheppard, North York Centre and Finch) are doing basically nothing.

 

[maestro]

I'm more interested in the effect the Crosstown Line will have on Wynford Drive lease rates which are ridiculously cheap and perhaps new construction over a longer term. Yonge and Eglinton is already lost to high rise living pressures. Best we can hope for is to maintain the existing square footage.

 

[Amare]

I believe that what you are asking the City to do at Y&E would require them to create a new Secondary Plan for the area following a study of office space needs. That plan would likely be challenged by developers appealing to LPAT, so would take a some years to come into effect assuming the LPAT appeal fails. (Municipal law experts: do I have this right?) Without a new plan in place, all they can do for the time being is require the 1 for 1 replacement of current office space.
42

That's exactly what I was thinking. It seems like the city is in a reactionary mode when it comes to major nodes which need a secondary plan, while "smaller nodes" if you will, are the ones that are seeing secondary plans developed (of course there are exceptions to that).

Our planning department is far too small as it is to serve our booming city, and our status quo mayor has done jack all to address that problem. If we had more manpower, i'm sure we would see more secondary plans executed throughout the city without the piecemeal garbage that's going on right now.

Condos are having no problem doing that. I'm sure they'd be building office here if the economics were favourable but clearly they are not.

Anything close to Union is booming. Everything else where I'd like to see office being built along Yonge (Bloor, St Clair, Eglinton, Sheppard, North York Centre and Finch) are doing basically nothing.

I agree the economies aren't favorable around Bloor and Yonge; I mean why build there when you can build closer to the Financial District. As I said before, things will change once available land around the Financial District disappear.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It'll never truly dissapear - just get tougher. You can already see it spreading further - out towards spadina, etc.

Financial Core will just see larger and larger office buildings demoed for even bigger ones. Sort of like in NYC and what is happening around Grand Central. That and developers will start to get creative, think along the lines of Commerce Court III.

Also, my understanding is that Bloor-Yonge isn't far off from the market fundamentals needed for new construction space. Cresford is actually building some new space right now in CASA III, and is doing so willingly (i.e. the city didn't make them do it). It's an office condo, so sort of non-traditional, but it is market driven new construction space.