Toronto Ïce Condominiums at York Centre | 234.07m | 67s | Lanterra | a—A

[NIL OMNI]

"I cut my losses after two years and moved out three months ago. I could not be happier for doing so."

Congratulations Tnarduzzi - you've escaped!!!

More of us will follow you out of this hell-hole in due course. Cannot begin to describe how bad living here has been... such a shame.

 

[WeirdFishes]

Has anyone read the Google reviews for Ice? 65 Highly entertaining experiences.

 

[Dustin William]

The more pressure put on Duka property management the better. There is no reason why this iconic building has to have such an early demise. I'm in it for the fight. A start is Airbnb short term rentals. They need to go. Period. And be enforced. Secondly, a new property management co pant needs to be put in place. One that cares for the aesthetic of the common areas. One that responds to issues quickly. ...I wish Lanterra had a property management arm like Menkes with Menres. You can see the developers work be respected and upkept. Ice is a well known building, and someone needs to come save it.

 

[DSC]

The more pressure put on Duka property management the better. There is no reason why this iconic building has to have such an early demise. I'm in it for the fight. A start is Airbnb short term rentals. They need to go. Period. And be enforced. Secondly, a new property management co pant needs to be put in place. One that cares for the aesthetic of the common areas. One that responds to issues quickly. ...I wish Lanterra had a property management arm like Menkes with Menres. You can see the developers work be respected and upkept. Ice is a well known building, and someone needs to come save it.

If short-term rentals are allowed under the Declaration it is certainly not going to be easy to forbid them but the Board is fully responsible for hiring and supervising the property management company and the Board can bring in Rules (which must then be enforced) to ensure that the PL company is informed, in advance, about all short-term rentals. You may never be able to get rid of short-term rentals but you can certainly put mechanisms in place to monitor and oversee them.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Hopefully the Airbnb situation comes to a resolution that works for everyone.

 

[Miscreant]

Unfortunately it was explicitly written in the initial declaration which was provided by the developer (Lanterra) that short term rentals are to be permitted. Many owners purchased units in this development with the sole intent of renting these units on the short term market. I learned there are numerous numbered companies which actually own multiple (5 or more) units in the buildings with the sole intent of operating the units as short term rentals.

That said, my understanding as a former resident of ICE was that the only way to change the declaration so as to ban short term rentals would be to have a significant majority of unit owners vote to do so. Given that a conservative 70% or more of owners are full time short term “Airbnb landlords” this is never likely to happen. These short term landlords are a significant voting block and effecively control the board at this point. Their only intent is to keep maintenance fees as low as possible and maximize their profits. As such the whole concept of short term rentals is running the entire complex in to the ground. Hence the high frequency of elevator entrapments, broken amenities, massive flooding events, and frequent power and water outages. Not to mention the completely overwhelmed security team which is constantly dealing with security incidents such as break-ins, fights and assaults, sexual assaults and gropings, drug usage, intoxicated people, vandalism, etc. (Now we can also add shootings to that list.)

(Sidebar to the above. You could probably write a fairly interesting thesis on the concept of Airbnb gutting property values in the name of short term profits.)

I am sad to say this but ICE is a becoming a ghetto. As ICE’s reputation grows worse and worse any prospective home owners and long term tenants will avoid it like the plague. Thus leaving it only appealing to short term “Airbnb landlords” and their guests. Problems will continue. Maintenance costs will skyrocket. And eventually property values will plummet.

Quite frankly ICE is not a well designed building to live in. The layout is awkward, cramped, and underserviced for the number of units (over 1,400 between the two buildings) and there is no sense of belonging. It is a nice addition to the skyline but poorly designed on the inside. As such to make it successful it would require a superb management team and vigilant owners, which sadly it is simply not getting.

I cut my losses after two years and moved out three months ago. I could not be happier for doing so.

Ps. It does not help that Duka Property Mangement is terrible and their staff turnover rate is atrocious. ICE seems to have a new property manager every 3 months or so. See my review of the property mangement company and their response here: https://www.google.com/maps/contrib...2ahUKEwiM1bnNvaDfAhUljoMKHSsGBBQQvvQBegQIARAR

Thanks fort this thoughtful post. I'm glad you were able to put this bad experience behind you.

Among other things, your experience is just one more anecdote testifying to the fact that AirBnB is a complete and utter travesty. There is a lot to be said about 'Platform Capitalism'--the idea that some corporations simply provide the platform on which rationally self-interested economic agents can enter into contracts--and your experience should no doubt be part of that discussion.

I'd be livid if I invested my life savings in a home only to find it is a 2-bit, unregulated hotel.

 

[tnarduzzi]

Thanks fort this thoughtful post. I'm glad you were able to put this bad experience behind you.

Among other things, your experience is just one more anecdote testifying to the fact that AirBnB is a complete and utter travesty. There is a lot to be said about 'Platform Capitalism'--the idea that some corporations simply provide the platform on which rationally self-interested economic agents can enter into contracts--and your experience should no doubt be part of that discussion.

I'd be livid if I invested my life savings in a home only to find it is a 2-bit, unregulated hotel.

I simply look at Airbnb like this, it should not be allowed in any situation where a group of people owns shares in a common investment.

Buying into a condo, townhouse, or any other property with common elements is about buying into a shared investment. No minority party to that investment should be permitted to increase their individual short term gains at the expense of all of the other investors’ long term stability and returns.

 

[LUVIT!]

When is the city of Toronto going to start regulating Airbnb? Will this help to solve the problem?

 

[DSC]

I simply look at Airbnb like this, it should not be allowed in any situation where a group of people owns shares in a common investment.

Buying into a condo, townhouse, or any other property with common elements is about buying into a shared investment. No minority party to that investment should be permitted to increase their individual short term gains at the expense of all of the other investors’ long term stability and returns.

Though I certainly have sympathy for anyone living in what sounds like a short-term occupancy hotel (and not a very well run one at that!), if short-term rentals are allowed in the Declaration your lawyer should have brought this to your attention prior to closing. In my building all Units pay same monthly fees (though the Unit size differs). This is unusual now but was not uncommon 40 years ago when our Corporation was built and it is something that my lawyer certainly drew to our attention. (In our case it is good as we have a larger Unit!). ! We have certainly had comments from owners of smaller Units who are not happy but ....Caveat Emptor and all that

 

[TheKingEast]

I agree that it needs to be regulated, but this all leads to a bigger issue. People are cash strapped and need ways to make money. Incomes are not enough, cost of living is soaring through the roof. People will always try and find a way to make money and save money as well (AirBnB vs Hotel).

That said, short term rentals should be allowed, but the building(board) should be allowed to make money from this as well, Security should also be beefed up and everyone on the premises should have to provide identification. It should all be on file for building security. These are just a few things that should change among other things. I'm not sure how things work now, but the owner should be on the hook for any camages or inconveniences casued by the short term renters.

 

[AHK]

A short note on allowability of short term rentals in a condominium building.

If short term rentals (typically less than six months) are prohibited in the Declaration, they are not legal, and it is up to the Board, through the Property Management company, to enforce the Declaration. After that, it is strictly a matter of diligence and competence. If the requirements of the Declaration are not being enforced, it is up to the Board to address the issue with the property management company, changing it if necessary, or failing that, for the owners to change the composition of the Board either at the AGM's or via a Requisition Meeting.

If short term rentals are explicitly allowed in the Declaration (I am not aware of any Declarations which make an explicit statement that short term rentals are allowed in a building on an unrestricted basis, or that there is to be no prohibition on short term rentals), then there is little that can be done. The Declaration is a higher order document than the Rules, Passing a Rule that contravenes a stipulation in the Declaration would have no effect - the rule cannot be enforced without getting the corresponding change made to the Declaration - requiring a minimum 80% approval of ALL owners (not just those voting on the change).

If the Declaration is silent on the issue of short term rentals, then the Board may propose revised Rules which could include a stipulation prohibiting short term rentals, and it would not be in contravention with the Declaration, as it it silent on the issue. Typically, the proposed revised rules would be approved by the Board, published to all owners, with a notice that should owners object, they should organize a Requisition Meeting, to put the issue to a vote. If the revised Rules are generally acceptable, it is probably unlikely that a Requisition meeting will be organized - it requires 15% of all owners to sign the Requisition calling for the meeting.

With respect to Airbnb (or other short term agency) visitors to our building - constant vigilance is required new tenants, and sometimes new owners, do not take our communications and signage seriously, so it comes up periodically. Our experience has been that international visitors are not generally a disturbance, but it is the 905's who want a place to party for the night, without disturbing their parents, who are by far the greatest problem.

As soon as an individual entering the building is identified as being provided with a fob and key, who is not on the list of registered residents (or whose access has not been specifically arranged, in advance with the Property Management office), enforcement procedures start - the security staff is authorized, is instructed to act - to implement access restrictions and gather the appropriate documentation - without needing further direction.

 

[TheKingEast]

A short note on allowability of short term rentals in a condominium building.

If short term rentals (typically less than six months) are prohibited in the Declaration, they are not legal, and it is up to the Board, through the Property Management company, to enforce the Declaration. After that, it is strictly a matter of diligence and competence. If the requirements of the Declaration are not being enforced, it is up to the Board to address the issue with the property management company, changing it if necessary, or failing that, for the owners to change the composition of the Board either at the AGM's or via a Requisition Meeting.

If short term rentals are explicitly allowed in the Declaration (I am not aware of any Declarations which make an explicit statement that short term rentals are allowed in a building on an unrestricted basis, or that there is to be no prohibition on short term rentals), then there is little that can be done. The Declaration is a higher order document than the Rules, Passing a Rule that contravenes a stipulation in the Declaration would have no effect - the rule cannot be enforced without getting the corresponding change made to the Declaration - requiring a minimum 80% approval of ALL owners (not just those voting on the change).

If the Declaration is silent on the issue of short term rentals, then the Board may propose revised Rules which could include a stipulation prohibiting short term rentals, and it would not be in contravention with the Declaration, as it it silent on the issue. Typically, the proposed revised rules would be approved by the Board, published to all owners, with a notice that should owners object, they should organize a Requisition Meeting, to put the issue to a vote. If the revised Rules are generally acceptable, it is probably unlikely that a Requisition meeting will be organized - it requires 15% of all owners to sign the Requisition calling for the meeting.

With respect to Airbnb (or other short term agency) visitors to our building - constant vigilance is required new tenants, and sometimes new owners, do not take our communications and signage seriously, so it comes up periodically. Our experience has been that international visitors are not generally a disturbance, but it is the 905's who want a place to party for the night, without disturbing their parents, who are by far the greatest problem.

As soon as an individual entering the building is identified as being provided with a fob and key, who is not on the list of registered residents (or whose access has not been specifically arranged, in advance with the Property Management office), enforcement procedures start - the security staff is authorized, is instructed to act - to implement access restrictions and gather the appropriate documentation - without needing further direction.

Bingo

 

[Miscreant]

I simply look at Airbnb like this, it should not be allowed in any situation where a group of people owns shares in a common investment.

Buying into a condo, townhouse, or any other property with common elements is about buying into a shared investment. No minority party to that investment should be permitted to increase their individual short term gains at the expense of all of the other investors’ long term stability and returns.

Nail: meet hammer. Exactly.

 

[Christopher Brown]

When is the city of Toronto going to start regulating Airbnb? Will this help to solve the problem?

They did take all steps to solve it but the predatory crowd making a killing off short term rentals ain't going to roll over. The City's new rules, if upheld, along with a strong management team, will put an end to the madness that rules in Ice and others, and the offending Declaration will be rendered moot.

Everything you need to know about past and present is summarized here in this Sept. '18 article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...t-term-rental-rules-for-at-least-at-year.html

 

[sikandar]

They did take all steps to solve it but the predatory crowd making a killing off short term rentals ain't going to roll over. The City's new rules, if upheld, along with a strong management team, will put an end to the madness that rules in Ice and others, and the offending Declaration will be rendered moot.

Everything you need to know about past and present is summarized here in this Sept. '18 article.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.th...t-term-rental-rules-for-at-least-at-year.html

This is a good example of beauracracy overriding common sense. When a delay of ONE YEAR would clearly be a win in itself for one side and impacts the security and housing needs of thousands of people, exceptions must be made to rule on an appeal quickly.