Toronto Ïce Condominiums at York Centre | 234.07m | 67s | Lanterra | a—A

[Mo-tage]

let's put this in context ... the lands for 18 York, 16 York (now York Centre), 25 York (now Telus), and 15 York (now MLS) were designated entirely for EMPLOYMENT purposes (ie: Office) ... out of that 2/3 of 16 York (ICE) + 15 York (MLS) got converted to residential ... how is that not altering the employment intent for the Union South District? clearly that is a net loss of office space in the area

I for one am glad that we didn't end up with 100% employment there. Why would you want an area like that. Bay and King aren't exactly hopping at 9pm. I don't know what the best mix of residential vs. employment is, but the four corners of York and Bremner are coming closer to the ideal than almost any other area in TO I can think of.

 

[UrbanAffair]

I don't understand then how cities like Chicago and NY are still building massive office towers, is it because its a different economic climate? Another thing is it true that Chicago has a plan to add something like 250000 jobs to its downtown core? Toronto should have a plan like this and should state that if Ice wants to build its complex then the office tower should be built the same time.

In how many years is Chicago going to add this 250000 jobs???? If they say in the next millenium, then sure, Its possible if we are still alive in 1000 years. For 250,000 jobs, (high value jobs that would be taking place in a downtown core) we are looking at adding another 2,000,000 people likely. Now I am guessing, but I figure, that would include children, teens, etc...in other words, im calling shinanigans on Chicago for that kind of claim....Shinanigans I say!! yes....im drunk..but it doesn't make me that far off...

 

[borgo100]

In how many years is Chicago going to add this 250000 jobs???? If they say in the next millenium, then sure, Its possible if we are still alive in 1000 years. For 250,000 jobs, (high value jobs that would be taking place in a downtown core) we are looking at adding another 2,000,000 people likely. Now I am guessing, but I figure, that would include children, teens, etc...in other words, im calling shinanigans on Chicago for that kind of claim....Shinanigans I say!! yes....im drunk..but it doesn't make me that far off...

LOL, i seconded your shinanigans!, ask MikeToronto over as SSP, he's the one who wrote it.
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=4801120&postcount=63
20 years?

 

[Automation Gallery]

hopefully the City forces them to build the office with the condo at least ... because we all know what's going to happen otherwise down the road (Ooo lets change the proposal and build another condo instead) ... hence this Union South 'employment' site will become ENTIRELY residential

Cadillac Fairview are no newbies when it comes to office building construction and leasing...im sure this will be built down the road.

 

[Chuck]

Also don't forget that Toronto is a much less centralized city than Chicago and especially New York. The percentage of office jobs which are located in the central part of the city is likely much lower in Toronto than either of these cities. And in Toronto, employment is becoming less centralized with each passing year.

Purely from the perspective of downtown office towers, the employment thresholds required by the Places to Grow act will continue to erode the significance of downtown Toronto as THE office node of the region. Nodes like Mississauga and Langstaff are slated to each have thousands upon thousands of office jobs, some of which might have otherwise been located downtown given that the urban boundary is not allowed to be expanded much further.

This is not a bad thing, although it does mean less office towers need to be built downtown than would have otherwise been the case.

 

[maestro]

It's significantly harder to find a large tenant to anchor a million square foot development in Toronto than it is in New York, Chicago and a half dozen or more other US markets. This reflects the size of the Canadian economy and, in turn, the size of our popultation.

 

[Traynor]

^Not to mention the sad reality that the events of 9/11 have caused large corporations to diversify their office space in an effort to not get wiped out in one fell swoop like Cantor Fitzgerald and others in the WTC.

The average Joe doesn't want to think about such dark ideas, but I'm sure professional risk management consultants certainly think along those lines. After all, certain groups have placed Toronto high on their hit lists.

 

[Automation Gallery]

It's significantly harder to find a large tenant to anchor a million square foot development in Toronto than it is in New York, Chicago and a half dozen or more other US markets. This reflects the size of the Canadian economy and, in turn, the size of our popultation.

Actually Toronto at the moment has one of the lowest office vacancy rates in North America, under 10%.... thats not bad.

 

[taal]

Actually Toronto at the moment has one of the lowest office vacancy rates in North America, under 10%.... thats not bad.

Yes Toronto does have a low vacancy rate compared to large cities in North America. But again this has to do with the more conservative market.

I think that's a really good point about how the American market is so much larger ... btw, I really don't think I agree Chicago is much more centralized ... if at all, are you sure about this?

What's the CMA of Chicago, it's huge no, a lot larger then the GTA? I think this may be one of the key points, also Canada is only a country of 30 million.

I think there are lots of areas around Chicago with office development, similar to Toronto.

Another interesting thing I've seen late, there are a lot of smaller projects on the market in Toronto now, some in King West (a 500,000 square feet building), also, East Bayfront, apparently the building under construction has 300,000 square feet of office space in the podium! 10 floors, it'll be interesting to see how that leases.

Another question, is the rent differential much different in Chicago from say here, property tax that is - I think this problem is similar throughout North America.

 

[Parkdalian]

Another question, is the rent differential much different in Chicago from say here, property tax that is - I think this problem is similar throughout North America.

I think it's hard to compare to rent in Chicago to rent in Toronto and make too much of a judgement about it. The cost of locating in one place includes rent, property taxes, income taxes (some states have no income taxes and simply levy their income through property taxes), but it also includes other things like government subsidies and a lot of nebulous things such as whether or not you can get highly qualified people to live in the neighbourhood of your office. For instance, I'm sure the office rental costs for Cincinnati are rock bottom, but getting people to live there is difficult.

As well, we are talking about two different countries with completely different economies. Chicago isn't really competing directly with Toronto for a lot of jobs - it's competing with New York and cities in the Midwest. There is some overlap, but as I know from my work in a multinational, Toronto offices rarely cover work that involves Americans. Some low-end office work (like call centres) is outsourced to Canada, but generally to (relatively) low-cost, high-education places like Montreal or Winnipeg. All of the high-end stuff usually remains in America.

I think it's fun to compare the office markets with Chicago, but in the end we have to take any conclusions with a grain of salt.

 

[maestro]

Toronto's opportunities for major relocations of 250,000 square foot companies from elsewhere in Canada is extremely limited in comparison to Chicago. Chicago just needs to nab one Forbes 100 head office and a couple more Forbes 500 head office to fill a half dozen towers. I forget the name, but one of these multi-nationals was recently building a new corporate campus somewhere in the Chicago region with about 4 million square feet of space.

 

[Red Mars]

Recent pics

 

[khris]

Wow, have they already started doing the shoring work?

 

[taal]

I think it's hard to compare to rent in Chicago to rent in Toronto and make too much of a judgement about it. The cost of locating in one place includes rent, property taxes, income taxes (some states have no income taxes and simply levy their income through property taxes), but it also includes other things like government subsidies and a lot of nebulous things such as whether or not you can get highly qualified people to live in the neighbourhood of your office. For instance, I'm sure the office rental costs for Cincinnati are rock bottom, but getting people to live there is difficult.

As well, we are talking about two different countries with completely different economies. Chicago isn't really competing directly with Toronto for a lot of jobs - it's competing with New York and cities in the Midwest. There is some overlap, but as I know from my work in a multinational, Toronto offices rarely cover work that involves Americans. Some low-end office work (like call centres) is outsourced to Canada, but generally to (relatively) low-cost, high-education places like Montreal or Winnipeg. All of the high-end stuff usually remains in America.

I think it's fun to compare the office markets with Chicago, but in the end we have to take any conclusions with a grain of salt.

I wasn't comparing Toronto to Chicago in that sense, all I meant was if our tax rate differential from the 905 / 416 is a lot greater then Chicago and it's suburbs it can explain why it's more centralized.

But I actually think this isn't true, and I don' think Chicago is any more centralized ... they have their 905s full of employment as well.

 

[urbandreamer]

Ok, who cares about boring office space in Chi vs T.o? Office space is what makes Toronto boring! We need more creative, attractive well dressed designer types instead! (Well dressed designer type=this building; boring office worker type=aura. )