Toronto Ïce Condominiums at York Centre | 234.07m | 67s | Lanterra | a—A

My understanding is that where developers have built larger units at the urging of politicians, they just haven't sold well. (But the real-estate experts here would have to back me up.)

It seems more sensible, at this stage in the game, to build condos in such a way that the units can be merged into larger units down the road. Market conditions change, but you can't rebuild a building.
 
It seems more sensible, at this stage in the game, to build condos in such a way that the units can be merged into larger units down the road. Market conditions change, but you can't rebuild a building

That is a brilliant idea, sort of modular floorplans like in office buildings. As far as you are aware have any such buildings gone up, with expandable units in mind? I suppose lofts concepts are more suitable.
 
It seems more sensible, at this stage in the game, to build condos in such a way that the units can be merged into larger units down the road. Market conditions change, but you can't rebuild a building

That is a brilliant idea, sort of modular floorplans like in office buildings. As far as you are aware have any such buildings gone up, with expandable units in mind? I suppose lofts concepts are more suitable.

The problem with this idea is a purchaser who wanted to buy two side-by-side units that have knockout panels would have to wait for the unit next door to go up for sale before the units could be combined. In real estate listings it's not common, but I do see combined units listed that have been purchased pre-construction (presumably) which have been made into one larger apartment, but can be restored back to two units if desired. Many developers (but not all) will sell side-by-side or two suites on top of each other (where possible) and combine them into one apartment prior to construction which is fairly common. That seems to be the most logical and workable solution for decent family sized apartments, albeit an expensive alternative.
 
I think it's somewhat common in places like New York, where people have been owning apartments for a lot longer than in Toronto.

http://cooperator.com/articles/289/1/Combining-Apartments/Page1.html

The thing that I could potentially see hindering this is the concrete dividers in most modern apartments. Does this hinder the ability of owners to combine units?

But I generally think it's a great idea. Buildings should never be designed to be completely unchangeable. The strength of a building is in its ability to shift uses over time - like St Lawrence Market or the churches that are being turned into apartments.
 
I don't see a big issue in cutting a hole through the concrete between two units. Obviously, it takes a concerted effort to prevent a swiss cheese effect from happening on other floors from compromising the wall.
 
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Not if you cut the hole properly. There's no reason why a wall with a properly reinforced cutout would be any weaker than a solid concrete wall
 
Not if you cut the hole properly. There's no reason why a wall with a properly reinforced cutout would be any weaker than a solid concrete wall


This is true, the walls are thicker between units for noise reasons initially but then Developers started using them as structural elements to reduce the size of columns. Now it is difficult to cut open units. You may get e doorway through but that is likely all. Most of the older buildings in New York are built on a steel skeleton and the walls between units weren’t structural.
 
I don't see a big issue in cutting a hole through the concrete between two units. Obviously, it takes a concerted effort to prevent a swiss cheese effect from happening on other floors from compromising the wall.

But this is Ice. It already has a Swiss cheese effect going
 
If it's double drywall or cinderblocks separating one unit from another I can see that being cut through to combine units but there's no way a condo board is going to approve cutting a hole through a load bearing concrete wall.
No?
 
It seems more sensible, at this stage in the game, to build condos in such a way that the units can be merged into larger units down the road. Market conditions change, but you can't rebuild a building

That is a brilliant idea, sort of modular floorplans like in office buildings. As far as you are aware have any such buildings gone up, with expandable units in mind? I suppose lofts concepts are more suitable.

77 Charles Street West
 
You all overlooked this point. Why do you suppose there are hundreds of developers trying to sell tiny apartments to people? Its really quite simple. The smaller they are, the larger the return for the developer. Do you honestly think they are heroic efficiency experts trying to save our society from the evils of consumption and consumerism and lead us to a brighter future where we all learn to live with less and buy less? Or are they simply trying to maximize the return on their investment in a piece of land?

I think it’s wonderful that you think we should downsize to help these developers , but isn’t there an argument that the developers have a role to play here too in providing decent sized accommodation for humans instead of simply accepting smaller and smaller units because they say so?

I've made a counter point to this many times and I come at this from the developer perspective, but your thought process on this is essentially wrong (as Ramako point out in his post). Developers typically make a fairly consistent % profit within the $psf of the product they sell. So a 400 square foot or 800 square foot or 1,200 square foot unit the % profit is very similar - the smaller units actually cost more to produce as they require more appliances (i.e 3 kitchens rather than one when comparing a 400 square foot to a 1,200 square foot unit) - there are also additional taxation implications (i.e. development charges are charges on a per unit basis) and Tarion enrolments etc are charged per unit + municipal parking requirements which impact downstream costs when constructing underground parking facilities (which are generally built at a loss in most developments even when charging $25,000 per parking space – fewer units means lower cost).

Also think of the extra overhead, logistical and marketing costs of building a 150 unit building (large units) vs a 300 unit building (small units) - that's an extra 150 units to sell, an extra 150 agreements of purchase and sale, legal issues, deposits etc. That’s an extra 150 people to deal with throughout the after-sales service process and an extra 150 people to take through all the various Tarion Warranty process issues. There are a lot of costs to deal with in selling smaller units.

Here is another way of looking at it. Think of a building with a 7,000 square foot floor plate. Knock off 1,500 square feet for elevators, circulation space, HVAC & fire escapes and the developer is left with 5,500 net square feet that they'll sell at $500 psf. That produces a revenue stream of $2,750,000. It doesn't really matter if that space is divided into 4 units or 8 units - the overall revenue stream is the same and the $psf is generally going to be the same throughout that floor-plate and the % profit be it 5% or 10% or whatever is generally going to be the very similar for different unit configurations.

So I really don't understand this argument that smaller units or more profitable. If anything they are more expensive to manage from a materials perspective (kitchens and bathrooms are more expensive then empty rooms) and more expensive to manage from an overhead & after-sales service perspective. Lastly the $psf throughout a building for various units sizes is generally the same. It comes down to managing risk.

Developers build what they can sell. The problem is that as average $psf continues to increase, that consumers can't afford larger spaces - so that spaces keep getting smaller to fill market demand. Any of the developers I know would gladly sell larger units if they could. The reason Adam Vaughan is trying to legislate 3 bedroom units is because there is little to no demand for them and developers aren't including what they can't sell in their product mix. There is no significant difference in profitability - it's all about what sells and what sells the fastest - developers don't want inventory hanging around as it increases risk and impacts financing arrangements.
 
^^Hmm, that's a good question. I think I remember recently reading on one of these forums that it would be commencing in February (I think), which is now.

Don't hold your breath, their permits are not issued:

16 YORK ST

09 188437 DRN 00 Drain and Site Service Feb 12, 2010 Not Started
09 188437 HVA 00 Mechanical(MS) Feb 12, 2010 Not Started
09 188437 PLB 00 Plumbing(PS) Feb 12, 2010 Not Started
10 118040 BLD 00 New Building Feb 12, 2010 Not Started
10 118040 FND 00 Partial Permit Feb 12, 2010 Not Started
09 188437 BLD 00 New Building Nov 16, 2009 Not Started
09 188437 FND 00 Partial Permit Nov 16, 2009 Not Started
09 188437 SHO 00 Partial Permit Nov 16, 2009 Refusal Notice
 

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