Toll Roads

[kEiThZ]

If they are going to start tolling all the highways, I want the road conditions, maintenance, etc. to be as good as the 407.

As for the 401, there's an easy compromise: Toll the collectors. Anybody who's from out of town who wants to drive through Toronto can stay on the Express all the way through.

Or you can setup a through rebate. ie, if your car is driven through Toronto from one end to the other without exiting anywhere, your toll is free.

 

[Disparishun]

Grid City

The key, I think, is to think of tolls as incentives, and to toll in a way that aligns these incentives with what we want urban planning to do. (There's an analogy here with Internet access pricing, come to think of it. But let's not go there.)

If we're going to toll, then I agree with some others' remarks here. Don't toll local roads. Toll highways. Do so on a simple distance basis.

But let's not toll yet. First let's take more common-sense, and more radical, steps that involves trading bad planning for good. Simply put, we need more through roads. Much of the congestion in Toronto results from the combination of suburban style of planning and our ravines. So I believe the proper solution is to start a massive discussion, and education campaign, about turning cul de sacs into through streets, and generally creating grids.

I use "cul de sacs" as a general catch-all. Obviously it's not really cul de sacs in some cases. The most vivid example for me (because of where I live) is Hilda (half-way between Yonge and Bathurst) as it crosses Steeles. There are rules forbidding drivers from crossing Hilda during rush hour (i.e. southbound in the morning, northbound in the evening). It just makes no sense. I get that there are residential dwellings on Hilda, and that they don't particularly love traffic. But Hilda's all there is for quite a stretch on a very busy street. It's the problem I believe we face in a nutshell. We need to get to a place where the Hildas can be through streets. Maybe that means rezoning to allow better density on Hilda-type streets, in which case the traffic inconvenience is outweighed by a jump in property value and, eventually, the realization of that value through sale for redevelopment that is better suited to the street.

We have lots of traffic congestion in this city, and lots of asphalt. There are lots of things we need to do, but one of them is to spread the congestion better across that asphalt. Come to think of it, we can slap a title on the plan: Grid City. Is Grid City the magic bullet here? Obviously, there is no magic bullet; but it would sure help.

 

[afransen]

Tolls should:
- be time of use. A useful feature of tolls is that they discourage use. Different rates for peak/off-peak/night-time help to balance load and reduce congestion. Essentially the same as the smart meters for electricity.
- not have max prices, unlimited use plans, etc. If you do this, for heavy users, we'll lose the feature in point one. This also subsidizes heavy use. If anything, every car user to get some a reduced (possibly zero) rate for the first few kilometers per month. This way occasional use could be inexpensive or free, but heavy/daily use would not.
-Depending on the goal of tolls, the toll rate can be near zero or zero at night, depending on actual levels of congestion. If we want to ensure that tolls cover cost of wear-and-tear, then one could set a minimum per-km rate.
-Heavy vehicles such as large trucks should not get a discount. If anything, they should pay a higher per km rate (which I believe is already the case for 407) to account for their higher wear and space requirements. Besides, any sane logistics operation would likely be willing to pay tolls if it meant their trucks (and drivers) were not sitting in traffic. Trucks already face a cost of upwards of $1/km with fuel, capital cost and wages factored in, which rises rapidly when the truck is travelling at only 15 km/h. On top of this, more certainty about travel times allows smaller fleets and improved service to their customers.

As far as phasing in tolls, I think we'd be best off jumping in with both feet and tolling all the 400-series and limited access highways in the GTHA (including Linc in Hamilton, etc.) but starting at a very low rate, like a couple cents per km. I'm sure some will be outraged anyway, but I think most people will shrug if it adds $0.50 per day to their cost of driving. I'm sure that Metrolinx will also be able to make the case that, at least initially, all the proceeds from the toll will be less than what is being invested in highways in the GTHA on an annual basis. Of course, it's all something of a shell game, since it all goes into general revenues and those highway improvements would happen anyway, so that the tolls are really providing funding for capital expenditure on transit.

 

[Second_in_pie]

As far as phasing in tolls, I think we'd be best off jumping in with both feet and tolling all the 400-series and limited access highways in the GTHA (including Linc in Hamilton, etc.) but starting at a very low rate, like a couple cents per km. I'm sure some will be outraged anyway, but I think most people will shrug if it adds $0.50 per day to their cost of driving. I'm sure that Metrolinx will also be able to make the case that, at least initially, all the proceeds from the toll will be less than what is being invested in highways in the GTHA on an annual basis. Of course, it's all something of a shell game, since it all goes into general revenues and those highway improvements would happen anyway, so that the tolls are really providing funding for capital expenditure on transit.

I agree with this. Tolls would be pretty hard to ease in well, but we should be starting small. Get the first round of Province-funded transit improvements, and then look at all the options people have. At that point, we could start raising tolls, so we can get more and more capital for projects. If done right, it could be a Renaissance for the region's transit.

 

[GraphicMatt]

If highways had never been made free-for-use, people would consider the idea of free highways ridiculous, the same way they do the idea of free public transit. Highways are expensive to build, difficult to maintain and if we made them free then everybody will use them all the time.

That's not to say there are not gigantic political hurdles standing against road pricing. I kind of assumed one of the reasons Metrolinx was established was so they could be a more 'independent' agency advocating for road tolls, thus making politicians look less culpable. Metrolinx's almost total silence on funding strategies for transit has been disappointing in this respect.

 

[bgd]

In support of road tolls [Globizen Property]:

http://www.globizenproperty.com/?p=1946

 

[hbl33]

In support of road tolls [Globizen Property]:

http://www.globizenproperty.com/?p=1946

I would have surprised if a private enterprise or an investment company endorsed the toll roads. But like other transit advocate movements, it is pushing for a rational use of toll to a reasonable transit spending rather than pooling unnecessarily to useless ventures.

 

[doady]

Again, I don't think it should be limited to a single highways or highway. Large arterial roads should be tolled too, and there's two reasons: It helps even the weight around everywhere (TO residents are also punished for driving even if they don't take the DVP/Gardiner and instead take Avenue Road or Eglinton or something) It also ensures that people don't just take an arterial road to avoid the highway toll. Great example of this is the Highway 7/407. Cars will avoid the 407 all the way to Kennedy, McCowan, I've even seen Markham Road, so they can avoid tolls on the 407. As a result, the highway does not do as good a job of relieving local traffic as it could. I could see the same with the DVP on Don Mills or Avenue Road, the Gardiner on Lakeshore or the Queensway, 427 on Highway 27 and Kipling, etc.

If we start tolling local roads then we start discouraging short distance travel as well. What is the point of that?

I don't consider highway tolls as way of directly forcing out of their cars or as a source infrastructure funding. Rather, I think highways tolls should be considered as a way of controlling sprawl by discouraging daily long distance commutes. So I think tolls should be highest during rush hour and highest in urban (and suburban) areas.

If we can discourage people from living so far from work, that reduces traffic congestion all around right there, because even the amount of motorists stayed constant, there would still be less of them on the road at the same. And also as people live closer and closer to work, the viability of walking, biking, and transit for commuting increases as well. Most importantly, if living far away becomes undesirable, there will be less greenfield development and more intensification...

 

[kEiThZ]

It's easy to live in the UT bubble where most of us agree with tolls. However, in the real world the public is going to have a tough time swallowing tolls after being told for years that gas taxes go towards road maintenance and the like.

Keep in mind that for Ontarians, the most exposure they get to tolls (other than the 407) is when they drive through the US. There tolls are tolerated because gas taxes are low and there's usually a meandering untolled alternative. The public is not going to tolerate the high taxes on gas we have and road tolls on every 400 series higway and the QEW through the GTHA.

You can't have it both ways here. My suggestion would be to lower gas taxes (even if it's just in the GTHA) and up the tolls. As cars get more efficient, gas tax revenue will decline. But the wear and tear of the roads from vehicles and congestion remains the same. So toll the problems (congestion, road use) not the symptom (fuel consumption). This kind of move would be tolerated in the same way that Ontarians have grudgingly accepted the HST. It would also make the shift to more dense living and shorter commutes, happen more quickly. And may well generate more revenue than gas taxes.

Most new cars definitely use less than 10L/100km. Given that provincial fuel taxes are in the 15 cents range (14.7 to be exact). That amounts to 1.5 cents per km. Charging 2 cents per km, does not sound like a lot to the public but it's easily 33% more per km than the existing gas tax. And as the car gets more efficient, so does the revenue gain. For a car that does 8L/100km, the revenue gain per km is 66%. Yet, from the public perspective this isn't all that bad. A Scarborough to Mississauga drive (40km highway) would cost about 80 cents.

 

[nfitz]

There tolls are tolerated because gas taxes are low and there's usually a meandering untolled alternative.

US gas taxes aren't that low! Looking at this website - http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp for our closest neighboru - New York state. There the gas taxe is about 31.9¢/gal and their sales tax on gas is 7.9¢/gal; converting to CAN$ and L would be about 11.0¢/L - which compares to the Ontario gas tax of 14.7¢/L. A bit cheaper, but not massively. Their federal gas tax is cheaper though, our is 10¢/L+GST (about 5¢ right now) for 15¢/L, and theirs is simply 18.4¢/gal or about 5.1¢/L.

State gas taxes have increased a lot in the USA in the last few years, while our have been static.

 

[kEiThZ]

Does it really matter to the average person whether those are state or federal taxes? Suggesting that gas taxes are comparable because their state taxes are high is a flawed comparison.

At the end of the day, a driver sees about 30 cents per litre in Ontario, and 18.4 cents per litre in New York. Drivers don't mind paying the 11-12 cents difference in tolls. But charging 1-2 cents road tolls without any reduction in gas taxes is likely to draw some serious criticism from the motoring public.

Even if the intent is to raise more revenue, I would suggest that for the sheer sake of making things politically palatable you'll need to reduce or eliminate provincial gas taxes. Eliminating the provincial gas tax in the GTHA would make gas as cheap as the US. But tacking on a 2 cents per km, highway toll would make driving as expensive as with the gas tax. It would also condition the public to getting used to more tolls and congestion pricing.

 

[Automation Gallery]

US gas taxes aren't that low! Looking at this website - http://www.gaspricewatch.com/usgastaxes.asp for our closest neighboru - New York state. There the gas taxe is about 31.9¢/gal and their sales tax on gas is 7.9¢/gal; converting to CAN$ and L would be about 11.0¢/L - which compares to the Ontario gas tax of 14.7¢/L. A bit cheaper, but not massively. Their federal gas tax is cheaper though, our is 10¢/L+GST (about 5¢ right now) for 15¢/L, and theirs is simply 18.4¢/gal or about 5.1¢/L.

State gas taxes have increased a lot in the USA in the last few years, while our have been static.

Your about right... Buffalo city regular gas prices right now average about $2.70 an american gallon which is roughly 3.5 cdn. litres, works out to aprox. 77.15 a litre, take the exchange into account and it is about 80 cdn. cents a litre, i guess thats still around a dime cheaper than here. but a far cry from the old days.

 

[Hipster Duck]

You can't have it both ways here. My suggestion would be to lower gas taxes (even if it's just in the GTHA) and up the tolls. As cars get more efficient, gas tax revenue will decline. But the wear and tear of the roads from vehicles and congestion remains the same.

That's a very good point. It makes more sense to reduce congestion by taxing vehicle miles traveled (ie: road tolls) than gasoline consumption, which varies from car to car (and is sort of an unintended tax on poorer drivers of older cars). From a policy perspective, my concern is that this might lead to more commuters clogging surface roads and impeding surface transit service. Perhaps dedicated (and enforced) HOV/BRT lanes on major arterials paralleling a freeway would help mitigate an unintended consequence like this.

 

[nfitz]

Does it really matter to the average person whether those are state or federal taxes? Suggesting that gas taxes are comparable because their state taxes are high is a flawed comparison.

No it doesn't ... I was just running through the numbers.

The point is, that they aren't much higher here ... only about 13.6¢/L higher here than in the New York..

 

[kEiThZ]

The point is, that they aren't much higher here ... only about 13.6¢/L higher here than in the New York..

When it comes to gas prices and the public mindset, that's an order of magnitude difference. And it will be sensitive to have gas prices that are 14 cents higher AND have road tolls at 1-2 cents a km. After all, at 1 cent per km, it's the equivalent of 10-12 cents per litre in gas taxes. Good luck trying to do that. The only way that kind of tax increase can be pulled off in my books is to hide it: knock of 14 cents from the gas tax and charge 2 cents per km, which means twice as much revenue per km as the current gas tax. Or if you want to assume the 55/45 city/hwy mix and get rid of the 15 cents per L provincial tax completely, that'd be about 3.33 cents per km (assuming a car that gets 10L/100km).

This is a simpler way to sell it to the public. Now they are paying for how much wear and tear they put out on the roads. It's more direct than a gas tax.

The other option to is to require an odometer check every year and pay a road use tax at registration time for all km driven. And since that includes local roads too, it could be really low: 1 cent per km for example. But would people tolerate variable registration fees?