Toll Roads

[Second_in_pie]

That's an interesting thought, that Europeans have such a big difference in their view on intrusions into "individual privacy." Maybe if it was Europe vs. US, there would be some big differences, but Canada's kind of the middle ground. I think as long as the pricing is reasonable and you're not actually attaching a GPS to people's cars, it'll be pretty easy to implement. Again, the only complaints you'll get is concerning the actual road tolls, and if those are reasonably priced (aka over half the price of the 407 ETR,) then you'll get very little complaint from a privacy standpoint.

And perhaps they should do a study on this; in depth planning never hurts. Take a look at what our goals are (either money raised, congestion alleviated, cars taken off the road or a combination of the above,) and find the best ways to do that. If it needs to be eased in, do a 407-type toll on major highways, while adding RFID tags on new license plates. Then eventually phase in new arterials that'll be added into the smart-toll system. If privacy is an issue, make tolls highway-only, or simply base the system on kilos driven at different times of day, eg. morning rush hour, midday, afternoon, evening, nighttime.

EDIT: I'm actually curious as to why you seem to be so cautious, if not outright opposed, to monitoring people's driving patterns for the purpose of tolling. It'd obviously be done by a computer, and the records would probably be very general times and places. If they did it by GPS, it'd only record major points like intersections and get rid of all the other data. In the case of a RFID tag, information would only be passed at large arterials, so you'd totally disappear after entering a smaller street. I really see the only people at risk being a) people involved in business they don't want their spouses/family knowing about, b) criminals, who should be worried anyways, or c) people who are opposed to tolls outright and are just finding something to nag about!

 

[kEiThZ]

EDIT: I'm actually curious as to why you seem to be so cautious, if not outright opposed, to monitoring people's driving patterns for the purpose of tolling.

Not that I am a nutter but I am generally concerned when any corporation or government agency keep voluminous amounts of information on me. And in this case, it's quiet a slippery slope. For example, would information from the tracking system be used in prosecutions? Could there be legal recourse for example for somebody to access the information to be used in legal disputes? For example, one company seeking info so that they can support legal action against another company. There's a lot of questions when you start tracking people's movements.

It'd obviously be done by a computer, and the records would probably be very general times and places.

Whether it was done by computer or by hand, the issue is the amount of data generated, and how it will be handled.

If they did it by GPS, it'd only record major points like intersections and get rid of all the other data.

One point tells you where someone is at a given time and place.
Two points give you a direction, distance and speed of travel.
That adds up to a fair bit of data if you are trying to track someone.

In the case of a RFID tag, information would only be passed at large arterials, so you'd totally disappear after entering a smaller street.

Again. People will know where you are. And it's not anybody's right to know where you are. You want to disappear? That's a right you have.

I really see the only people at risk being a) people involved in business they don't want their spouses/family knowing about, b) criminals, who should be worried anyways, or c) people who are opposed to tolls outright and are just finding something to nag about!

Similar arguments have been used in the UK to amass the largest database of citizen's DNA in the world. Anybody who's had anything more than a traffic ticket in the UK now has their DNA in the database. This is what I mean by slippery slope. Would this GPS data be used for example in court cases involving traffic accidents? Could the derived speed data be used to issue speeding tickets? Would a spouse or parent be able to seek legal access to the data to spy on their partner or teen? I can just see it now, an aggrieved spouse whipping out GPS data in a divorce hearing to prove her husband was visiting his mistress. And note that it is an individual's right not to have his/her spouse track everyone of his/her movements. Saying that they should not have a problem with it, does not make the issue go away. Would you want to give this tool to an abusive spouse?

If they are going to start tracking cars, they better make sure that data is damn safe and inaccessible to all but the owner of the vehicle. They also better have safe guards that prevent the data from being used for any purposes (including law enforcement) without authorization. If they start mailing out speeding tickets, because they figured out you averaged 70 kph on Sheppard, I am fairly sure support for this concept will drop rather quickly. I am also fairly sure, I am not the only Canadian who'd have these kinds of reservations if they put this idea out there. For a population that's barely used to having a few public surveillance cameras, GPS tracking of private automobiles would be a massive intrusion of privacy. I am willing to bet good money this would be a non-starter. It would probably also take down any government that proposed it. Again, see Photo Radar.

 

[afransen]

I really don't understand why people are so opposed to using GPS or photoradar to enforce things like speed limits. If you don't like speed limits, press the government to repeal that part of traffic law. It's bizarre to say that government should not take reasonable steps to enforce the duly-enacted laws of the land. The privacy claim seems like BS to me. We are already driving around with uniquely identifying information broadcast to anyone who's looking: license plates.

And, so what if GPS tracking data is used in court? Other personal data like telephone records, financial information, search and seizure of private property are all admissible in court.

Not that I am particularly gung-ho on GPS tracking, mainly for logistical reasons. However, I think it's fairly important that tolls be time-of-use. Thus, odometer readings are not good enough.

It seems that there are ways to allow for privacy when using a transponder like those used for 407. Some sort of prepaid scheme where you could top up the account using cards purchased at retail, or whatever. Most people won't care enough to bother, but if there are some nuts who are paranoid about such things, they ought to be able to do something to obfuscate their identity.

 

[pman]

costs and benefits

It's interesting that people concerned with privacy here don't seem to have a problem with the massive financial data warehouses that are now maintained on every one of us by credit card companies and banks, or with the fact that this information is shared with Fintrac (the federal agency that monitors financial transactions for criminal or terrorist activity), and by extension with Canadian and US security services.

I would suggest that the privacy cost of GPS tracking of vehicle (not individual) movement is minimal, and it can be controlled by strict rules on the use of the data, with annual public audits.

The benefits are more than clear:

1. Time of day and congestion-sensitive pricing
2. Ability to allow for local exemptions (you could do a particular turn if you lived in a neighbourhood, but not otherwise)
3. Systematic enforcement of speeding laws leading to fewer highway deaths
4. Funding for transit under local control
5. Incentive to reduce overall traffic volumes
6. Incentive to use the existing road network more efficiently
7. All the fun of listening to Denzil Minnan-Wong and Case Ootes rant about the latest salvo in the "war on the car"

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Who said we don't have a problem with those financial information clearinghouses. Of course that's an issue. But that's not what's being discussed here.

Anyway, I am fairly confident that outside of this thread, there are few average Canadians who would stand for them or their vehicles being tracked by GPS 24 hours a day.

 

[pman]

not sure

Don't GM OnStar buyers pay a government-owned company for precisely the privilege of being tracked by GPS 24/7?

 

[GraphicMatt]

I think GPS tracking of cars is a lot like photo radar. Even though there's nothing really rights-infringing about it, and there's a ton of political and economic justification for it, it's something that would be so unpopular with the electorate that any politician pushing for it would surely face defeat.

Road tolls in general used to be in the same category, however, and now they seem actually plausible. I'd bet once tolling has been implemented for a few years you'd be able to add GPS tech to the whole thing - as a means of reducing overhead - without too much trouble.

 

[Inkarnate]

Hold on, I'm confused. Wasn't the 407 supposed to go toll-free 30 years after its completion in 1997?

 

[urbanfan89]

It was actually for 35 years, but then someone named Mike had another idea and sold it off for $3.1 billion to a Spanish conglomerate for a 99 year lease.

The more I think of it, the more I hate the idea of tracking all vehicles. Fuel taxes already promote less driving and less fuel-intensive vehicles. It's much simpler to administer and monitor. As for the problem of congestion during rush hour, drivers will be able to adjust their schedule or find alternate routes. The fuel tax will only serve to quantify pollution emitted.

 

[afransen]

As for the problem of congestion during rush hour, drivers will be able to adjust their schedule or find alternate routes. The fuel tax will only serve to quantify pollution emitted.

I think that has been repeatedly demonstrated to not be the case. Some people value the road more than others, but since it's free it's worthless to everyone during periods of heavy congestion. It's classic tragedy of the commons.

 

[kettal]

The more I think of it, the more I hate the idea of tracking all vehicles. Fuel taxes already promote less driving and less fuel-intensive vehicles. It's much simpler to administer and monitor. As for the problem of congestion during rush hour, drivers will be able to adjust their schedule or find alternate routes. The fuel tax will only serve to quantify pollution emitted.

I agree, but fuel taxes ought to be higher like Europe.

 

[Millstone]

I don't see any reason why all 400-series highways shouldn't be tolled. The tolls should be variable based on time-of-use, if not actual congestion. Tolls should be significant during peak times, and can be nominal outside those peak times. The goal should be to divert some discretionary travel to times when there is excess capacity.

Really? Because you know how busy the 416, 402 and 405 can get.

Tolls should be implemented on all 400 series highways, the QEW, Gardiner and DVP as soon as possible with the provision for all toll proceeds to be used for improvements to the TTC.

How are you going to make the case for tolls for 400-series highways in far-away towns, cities and communities funneling back to Toronto, completely bypassing the transit needs in those towns, cities and communities?

Anybody who's from out of town who wants to drive through Toronto can stay on the Express all the way through.

The BIAs will have your head for that comment.

To summarize, the King's Highways are paid for by Ontario taxpayers and should serve them.

 

[kEiThZ]

The BIAs will have your head for that comment.

Then why do we have the Express lanes now?

 

[afransen]

Really? Because you know how busy the 416, 402 and 405 can get.

Less congested roads would be subject to lower congestion-related tolls. If we wanted to toll for wear-and-tear, there could be a minimum.

To summarize, the King's Highways are paid for by Ontario taxpayers and should serve them.

There are plenty of services that are provided by government that are subject to user fees. Our electricity is provided by the Ontario government. Are you saying it should be free?

 

[Kiwi]

Have Metrolinx or the MTO looked at HOT lanes instead of HOV lanes? HOT lanes are popping up all over the states.

http://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Projects/SR167/HOTLanes/HOTimage.htm