The Toronto Tree Thread

[Northern Light]

In 1985 I planted rows of maples along my long country driveway. Half were Norways and half were Sugars. The Norways have thrived, the Sugars not so well. Through the years, I came to understand that I'd made a mistake in planting Norway Maple for a couple of reasons. Compared to native Sugar and Red Maples, the Norway Maple offers little to biodiversity and is quite overbearing with roots near the surface and seedlings going everywhere. I even decided to take the offending Norways down, until a Forestry friend advised that at least the fast growing Norways provided great shade and help keep the ground from drying out in our hot, dry summers. So, I left them in, but not letting them take over. What happens in the future to control this non-native when I'm gone, is moot.

Entirely up to you, but I would suggest taking them one at a time and replacing them 2 for 1 with new plantings.

Its up to you what your comfort level is, but you have the option of girdling the Norway (killing it), while leaving it standing for awhile. Obviously it will fall over at some point, and you don't want that to be on you or a guest at your home, I'm simply noting it doesn't have to come down immediately when you kill it.

Sugars are gorgeous, of course, but they are a bit fussier than Norways and will be out competed by them. If you're using road salt on the driveway, I would suggest trying to use less and/or switching to sand to help the Sugars out.

If you won't want to go all Sugar, there are other native choices that would work instead. Silver Maple is easily the most robust of the native maples and the real one (not Acer Freeman) would give a nice yellow in fall to contrast with the orange-red of the Sugars.

Alternatively, if there's enough sun, Red Oak could work; or if you need something a bit more BS tolerant, two near-natives Honey Locust and Swamp White Oak are very reliable choices.

 

[old boy]

Entirely up to you, but I would suggest taking them one at a time and replacing them 2 for 1 with new plantings.

Its up to you what your comfort level is, but you have the option of girdling the Norway (killing it), while leaving it standing for awhile. Obviously it will fall over at some point, and you don't want that to be on you or a guest at your home, I'm simply noting it doesn't have to come down immediately when you kill it.

Sugars are gorgeous, of course, but they are a bit fussier than Norways and will be out competed by them. If you're using road salt on the driveway, I would suggest trying to use less and/or switching to sand to help the Sugars out.

If you won't want to go all Sugar, there are other native choices that would work instead. Silver Maple is easily the most robust of the native maples and the real one (not Acer Freeman) would give a nice yellow in fall to contrast with the orange-red of the Sugars.

Alternatively, if there's enough sun, Red Oak could work; or if you need something a bit more BS tolerant, two near-natives Honey Locust and Swamp White Oak are very reliable choices.

Thanks for your good advice, as always. This property is a Managed Forest which I own and has been planted with native trees and bushes yearly to increase biodiversity. I love red oaks and dogwoods especially. Serviceberry is a great favourite for wildlife. Sadly, Autumn Olive was planted by the local Conservation Authority on the property over 20 years ago and is running rampant. Don't even mention DSV or European Buckthorn.

 

[lenaitch]

I've got a soft spot for Sugar Maple as a legacy species. The gnarly old maples you see along road allowances and old farm laneways are getting pretty old. One advantage of native compound leaf trees is the small leaves break down faster and don't leave such a mat, if that's important to you. That's the one problem I have with Oaks. They drop their leaves very late and are, for want of a better word' 'waxy' which means they break down slower and leave a dense mat that can chock out understory (either a good or bad thing). The one thing about Honey Locust is the spikes/spines.

Not as knowledgeable (not even close) as NL, but what about Mountain Ash (not really a true Ash), Butternut, Black Locust or Walnut? It's too bad the real Ash trees are so threatened.

 

[Northern Light]

Not as knowledgeable (not even close) as NL, but what about Mountain Ash (not really a true Ash)

Not native on the shores of Lake Ontario. Native throughout the shield and Appalachia / Laurentians

Butternut,

Native, endangered, subject to a canker which can kill it, which is one reason its endangered.

Butternut, like Walnut also produces Juglones which many other trees find disagreeable (and even lethal).

However, Sugars are Juglone tolerant.

Plants that Butternuts/Walnuts might kill:

Black Locust

Non-native and invasive.

or Walnut?

See Butternut comments

It's too bad the real Ash trees are so threatened.

It is!

 

[lenaitch]

Not native on the shores of Lake Ontario. Native throughout the shield and Appalachia / Laurentians



Native, endangered, subject to a canker which can kill it, which is one reason its endangered.

Butternut, like Walnut also produces Juglones which many other trees find disagreeable (and even lethal).

However, Sugars are Juglone tolerant.

Plants that Butternuts/Walnuts might kill:

View attachment 436875



Non-native and invasive.



See Butternut comments



It is!

Ah, regarding Black Locust, I failed to notice the "not" on UGuelph's website.

Mountain Ash might not be native to southern Ontario but at least it is provincially native and has been introduced ornamentally quite well. At least it's not invasive.
The local town's park has planted Butternut (or, at least I thought) alternating with another species and understoried with perennial gardens and everything seems to be doing well. I'm not good enough to go down and find out what the other tree is now that the leaves are off.

 

[Northern Light]

Ah, regarding Black Locust, I failed to notice the "not" on UGuelph's website.

Mountain Ash might not be native to southern Ontario but at least it is provincially native and has been introduced ornamentally quite well. At least it's not invasive.
The local town's park has planted Butternut (or, at least I thought) alternating with another species and understoried with perennial gardens and everything seems to be doing well. I'm not good enough to go down and find out what the other tree is now that the leaves are off.

I'm totally pro-planting Butternut. I just think its important for people to be aware of what trees/plants they have nearby given the juglone issue; and also to be prepared if the trees do get the canker, that they may not make it. (many do)

Quite correct, Mountain Ash isn't what I would deem a problem species at all; just not strictly native to the type of area in question. It would probably do fine.

 

[Memph]

American Sycamore is really pretty, I've seen some in Point Pelee and along the Sydenham River (Lambton/Middlesex County). Grows huge and really fast too.

Sassafras looks really nice in the fall, but doesn't grow that big and seems to be somewhat short lived (like 20-30 years?).

Tulip trees can be fairly nice too.

Also found a really big cottonwood down there, I'd say about 6ft diameter trunk (backpack for scale).

And a really nice old honey locust

Upside of oak trees being slow to change colour and drop leaves is that you can get this to happen

Is this big boy just a really mature beech tree?

Also what kind of magnolias are these (not sure if they're the same variety, but both have huge leaves)
Taken this October:

A different tree, photo taken in early June.

This magnolia has smaller leaves, but I'd also be curious about what type it is, it's growing among some rhododendrons.

 

[Northern Light]

Is this big boy just a really mature beech tree?

Keep in mind I'm not an arborist; just someone knowledgeable about trees that grow in Southern Ontario.

But yes, I believe that is a Beech tree. Very few trees in Ontario have bark that looks like that.

Also what kind of magnolias are these (not sure if they're the same variety, but both have huge leaves)

Magnolias are something I have not planted, and am less familiar w/them, and there are over 200 varieties...........that said.

A different tree, photo taken in early June.

This one looks like Umbrella Magnolia to my eye (Magnolia Tripetala); google it and see what you think.

This magnolia has smaller leaves, but I'd also be curious about what type it is, it's growing among some rhododendrons.

I'm a bit stumped by this one, there are several smaller leaved species..... the absence of flowers (how plants are classified) makes it very challenging.

But it looks a bit more shrub like with smaller leaves, I'm thinking maybe a cultivar of Lily Magnolia (Magnolia liliiflora); but that's a bit of a shot in the dark. There are many cultivars of that species.

 

[lenaitch]

American Sycamore is really pretty, I've seen some in Point Pelee and along the Sydenham River (Lambton/Middlesex County). Grows huge and really fast too.

Sassafras looks really nice in the fall, but doesn't grow that big and seems to be somewhat short lived (like 20-30 years?).

Tulip trees can be fairly nice too.

Also found a really big cottonwood down there, I'd say about 6ft diameter trunk (backpack for scale).

And a really nice old honey locust

Upside of oak trees being slow to change colour and drop leaves is that you can get this to happen

Is this big boy just a really mature beech tree?

Also what kind of magnolias are these (not sure if they're the same variety, but both have huge leaves)
Taken this October:

A different tree, photo taken in early June.

This magnolia has smaller leaves, but I'd also be curious about what type it is, it's growing among some rhododendrons.

The photo of the Oak makes me think the red leaves are of the vine I know as 'Wild Grape'. I've never seen a deciduous tree's leaves change colour in that linear fashion before. Wild Grape is a vine that, when we had the farm, was a bane of my existence. The property had been let go for a number of years and the vine took hold of many trees. It will often misshapen and kill trees simply by smothering them. It was so strongly entangled in some trees I couldn't pull it away with my tractor.

 

[Memph]

The photo of the Oak makes me think the red leaves are of the vine I know as 'Wild Grape'. I've never seen a deciduous tree's leaves change colour in that linear fashion before. Wild Grape is a vine that, when we had the farm, was a bane of my existence. The property had been let go for a number of years and the vine took hold of many trees. It will often misshapen and kill trees simply by smothering them. It was so strongly entangled in some trees I couldn't pull it away with my tractor.

Southern Ontario has several native vines, although I'd say the two most common ones are Riverbank Grape and Virginia Creeper. The red leaves are Virginia Creeper, whereas the Riverbank Grape turns yellow, and the leaves have fairly different shapes.

 

[Northern Light]

The photo of the Oak makes me think the red leaves are of the vine I know as 'Wild Grape'. I've never seen a deciduous tree's leaves change colour in that linear fashion before. Wild Grape is a vine that, when we had the farm, was a bane of my existence. The property had been let go for a number of years and the vine took hold of many trees. It will often misshapen and kill trees simply by smothering them. It was so strongly entangled in some trees I couldn't pull it away with my tractor.

Wild Grape can be a real pain.

But in that photo, it isn't grape.

I zoomed up on it; looks like its probably Virginia Creeper.

Edit: @Memph you answered while I was typing! Glad we agree on that one.

 

[Memph]

Keep in mind I'm not an arborist; just someone knowledgeable about trees that grow in Southern Ontario.

But yes, I believe that is a Beech tree. Very few trees in Ontario have bark that looks like that.



Magnolias are something I have not planted, and am less familiar w/them, and there are over 200 varieties...........that said.



This one looks like Umbrella Magnolia to my eye (Magnolia Tripetala); google it and see what you think.



I'm a bit stumped by this one, there are several smaller leaved species..... the absence of flowers (how plants are classified) makes it very challenging.

But it looks a bit more shrub like with smaller leaves, I'm thinking maybe a cultivar of Lily Magnolia (Magnolia liliiflora); but that's a bit of a shot in the dark. There are many cultivars of that species.

It seems Tripetala, Acuminata and Macrophylla all have very large leaves. I guess I'll have to take a closer look in spring when they're flowering.

 

[Northern Light]

Not to continue this off-topic discussion too much, but I see this with a lot of the oaks on my street. Funny enough, for most of them it's only the bottom 1/4 (of the tree's canopy) still holding their leaves.

Just shifting this over here.

Good explanation of the process you're observing and possible reasons why (there is no 100% consensus answer):

Why Do Some Trees Keep Their Leaves Through Winter? | Three Rivers Park District

Above: Oak trees at Murphy-Hanrehan Park Reserve hold onto their leaves through winter. Photo by Erin Korsmo. At the end of fall, most deciduous trees lose their leaves for the winter season. In fact, the word deciduous comes from the Latin word decidere, which means to fall down or off. There...

www.threeriversparks.org

 

[Memph]

I'm a bit stumped by this one, there are several smaller leaved species..... the absence of flowers (how plants are classified) makes it very challenging.

But it looks a bit more shrub like with smaller leaves, I'm thinking maybe a cultivar of Lily Magnolia (Magnolia liliiflora); but that's a bit of a shot in the dark. There are many cultivars of that species.

FYI the leaves on it are still green, which means it's not a deciduous variety, narrowing things down quite a bit.

 

[Northern Light]

FYI the leaves on it are still green, which means it's not a deciduous variety, narrowing things down quite a bit.

Actually that doesn't make it coniferous.

It certainly is intriguing though. If I get down there I can probably ID it.

But if anyone passing by wants to take a clear photo of the leaf, the bark and the form, I will definitely get it ID'd sooner. (Christmas is busy and I may not have time to head down w/the camera all that soon)

@Red Mars is often nearby so I'll tag him just in case its convenient for him.