The Toronto Tree Thread

[Admiral Beez]

Im trying out the backyard leaf program this year have my appointment at the end of the month, will try and update this thread on my experience.

I’ll check them out too, https://www.yourleaf.org/full-service-backyard-tree-planting Challenge is the small backyards that violate their spacing rules. Meanwhile Cabbagetown is filled with huge trees that were planted on tiny lots by humans or nature.

 

[smably]

Paging our resident tree expert for some advice! I'm fortunate enough to have recently become a homeowner and I have the opportunity to ask the city to plant a boulevard tree in front of my house. The question now is what species to request. I know I want something native to this part of the province; that's the only firm requirement.

The site is on a quiet north-south street off Bloor. The tree would be planted on the west side of the street and would get full sun from morning into early afternoon. I'd like a hardy, fast-growing tree that will provide plenty of shade and grow to be a good size. There are already three large maples directly across the street, so I'm thinking I might prefer something other than a maple for better variety.

I've been studying the city's tree brochure for ideas. Red Oak looks promising based on size and hardiness. I had been considering the Kentucky Coffeetree based on the info in the brochure, but it seems that it's not actually native to this area? Anything else I might consider?

 

[Northern Light]

Paging our resident tree expert for some advice! I'm fortunate enough to have recently become a homeowner and I have the opportunity to ask the city to plant a boulevard tree in front of my house. The question now is what species to request. I know I want something native to this part of the province; that's the only firm requirement.

The site is on a quiet north-south street off Bloor. The tree would be planted on the west side of the street and would get full sun from morning into early afternoon. I'd like a hardy, fast-growing tree that will provide plenty of shade and grow to be a good size. There are already three large maples directly across the street, so I'm thinking I might prefer something other than a maple for better variety.

I've been studying the city's tree brochure for ideas. Red Oak looks promising based on size and hardiness. I had been considering the Kentucky Coffeetree based on the info in the brochure, but it seems that it's not actually native to this area? Anything else I might consider?

If you didn't want Maple/want diversity; Oaks are an excellent choice.

Bur Oak is very hardy and reliable; and will hold its leaves (brown) well into winter; but will not give you the same vibrancy of red as Red Oak or Red Maple

Among the Maples; it might be interesting to know what kinds you have across the street.

Sugars give you the Orange to Red look in fall; Reds an even more vibrant Red, while Silver (the Maple leaf w/the deep cuts in it) would naturally turn yellow in fall.

Black Maple is a very close relative of Sugar; but uniquely for Maple, has a fuzzy leaf when you feel the underside.

This is a good primer on Black Maple vs Sugar:

Black Maple - Acer saccharum var. nigrum | The Arboretum

www.uoguelph.ca

***

On speed of growth; Oaks are all kinda pokey, most years; and will put up 1-2ft of growth, once in a while you get a faster growing specimen.

In my experience Maples grow a bit faster, particularly Silvers.

****

I so have issues w/their tree list...........aside from things I wish they didn't offer, and those I wish they did; they take some serious liberties with the word 'native'.

I do not consider Kentucky Coffee Tree native to Toronto.

This is its natural range:

From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kentucky_coffeetree#/media/File:Gymnocladus_dioicus_range_map_4.png

I would not consider Tulip Tree, Cucumber Tree, Ohio Buckeye or Black Gum native either.

Too bad they don't offer more native choices.

Some are hard to source (a big reason the City would hate them, but the trade would grow them if the City were a guaranteed buyer) ; while others have niche habitats and the City just wants to avoid saying 'no' to people.

Grumble.


Edit to Add:

Stick a shovel in your lawn or the City's Boulevard to see what the soil looks like underneath.

(then put the grass back, it'll be fine.........)

Oaks are particularly partial to sandier soils; Maples will generally prefer loamier, darker/richer soils; though Silver will put up with just about anything.

 

[Northern Light]

One tree they really need to add to that brochure is Black Cherry; its a very good performer.

But I'd also like to see Basswood, Bitternut Hickory (won't do great on most boulevard sites, but would on some)

Black Walnut is a great performer too; but I have an idea why the City would avoid it (if you ever have a walnut drop on your head, you'll know instantly)

Beech is another good one; the issue w/it is definitely that its hard to find good ones; and they probably cost more than the City wants to spend....if you can find one.

I should add, they (The City) seem to have an allergy to evergreens/conifers.

I realize they don't typically provide as much canopy or under-story shade; but they're an important part of the eco-system; some people would love to have one; and they do provide some shade, eventually.

White Pine, Red Pine, Eastern White Cedar, Red Cedar and Eastern Hemlock are all natives.

The Cedars can abide a wide range of growing conditions, but aren't overly keen on excessive dog urine.

White and Red Pines can be good performers too.

Hemlock is a bit fussier.

 

[smably]

Thanks for this great info @Northern Light! Lots to chew on. I will take a peek at the soil and see what I find.

As for the trees across the street, I'm not entirely sure what varieties of maple they are. The leaves are just coming out now, but based on the shape of the branches and street view from last September, two of them look like Silver Maples (both very tall) and the other I'm not sure of -- it's stouter and the leaves are dark in colour, almost purple. Might be a Norway Maple? It's currently covered in light green buds or flowers.

The other option is for me to pay to have LEAF plant a tree instead of going through the city. They have a slightly different selection of species: https://www.yourleaf.org/species-offered

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks for this great info @Northern Light! Lots to chew on. I will take a peek at the soil and see what I find.

As for the trees across the street, I'm not entirely sure what varieties of maple they are. The leaves are just coming out now, but based on the shape of the branches and street view from last September, two of them look like Silver Maples (both very tall) and the other I'm not sure of -- it's stouter and the leaves are dark in colour, almost purple. Might be a Norway Maple? It's currently covered in light green buds or flowers.

The other option is for me to pay to have LEAF plant a tree instead of going through the city. They have a slightly different selection of species: https://www.yourleaf.org/species-offered

Subject to site conditions and people's desires; I would normally say take the free tree from the City for the front; and consider LEAF for a backyard tree.

I would add, if you have good advice and a green thumb, you can probably plant a good tree in the back for less than what LEAF will charge you; but they do offer advice (and in normal years) planting, and so you save some effort and get help making a good choice.

If you want to grow veggies in the backyard or soak up some sun; then that's a consideration to be weighed; but in front or back; one could also consider a 'natural' yard; as opposed to sod; and in that case more trees/shrubs may be possible.

FWIW

LEAF's list is much better than the City's.

 

[smably]

If you want to grow veggies in the backyard or soak up some sun; then that's a consideration to be weighed; but in front or back; one could also consider a 'natural' yard; as opposed to sod; and in that case more trees/shrubs may be possible.

I'm thinking of going for some kind of pollinator garden in back. There's a beautiful mature tree (unsure what kind as the leaves aren't out yet) just across the property line to the north with a canopy that extends about halfway across my yard, so I'm pretty happy with the tree situation in back as it is.

 

[Northern Light]

I'm thinking of going for some kind of pollinator garden in back. There's a beautiful mature tree (unsure what kind as the leaves aren't out yet) just across the property line to the north with a canopy that extends about halfway across my yard, so I'm pretty happy with the tree situation in back as it is.

Do you have any idea what you want to attract?

(different species draw different pollinators)

ie.

Milkweed ( Asclepias syriaca) is great for Monarch Butterflies

From: https://www.greentecnursery.com/common-milkweed/

Beebalm (Monarda fistulosa) will get you lots of bees.

from: https://www.curenursery.com/plants/monarda-fistulosa/

Not-native; but Curly Parsley and Dill would make Black Swallowtail butterflies thrilled (they lay their eggs on them, and their caterpillars will eat it.)

I'm happy to provide suggestions.

 

[smably]

Do you have any idea what you want to attract?

To be honest, the plan for the back yard is still in the embryonic stage (lots of work to do inside the house first) and I haven't thought that far ahead! I do like the idea of something bee-friendly though. I'll definitely ask for some planting advice once I'm ready to tackle the back yard.

 

[lenaitch]

I would think one of the city's main aversions to conifers on boulevards is sightlines. Also, many don't seem to tolerate road salt spray - the needles become desiccated.

 

[Northern Light]

I would think one of the city's main aversions to conifers on boulevards is sightlines. Also, many don't seem to tolerate road salt spray - the needles become desiccated.

I've heard of the sightlines concern. I understand that in respect of cars, if its close to an intersection, or 1m from a driveway on a main road......

But that leaves plenty of spots where that would or should be a non-issue.

As to salt spray, it varies.

White Spruce is among the most salt tolerant species you'll find, and that's why are they are used so extensively along highway projects; that and they are good at blocking drifting snow.

Other conifers can be much more sensitive, but so can a host of hardwoods.

As such, its about the site-specific conditions (how far back from the road, how much soil volume, speed of traffic, level of salt application, etc etc.)

 

[lenaitch]

I've heard of the sightlines concern. I understand that in respect of cars, if its close to an intersection, or 1m from a driveway on a main road......

But that leaves plenty of spots where that would or should be a non-issue.

As to salt spray, it varies.

White Spruce is among the most salt tolerant species you'll find, and that's why are they are used so extensively along highway projects; that and they are good at blocking drifting snow.

Other conifers can be much more sensitive, but so can a host of hardwoods.

As such, its about the site-specific conditions (how far back from the road, how much soil volume, speed of traffic, level of salt application, etc etc.)

I was thinking of a typical suburban boulevard - if there is such a thing, where the spread of a conifer might encroach on the sideway or roadway or both, whereas the foliage of mature deciduous trees are obviously higher. Even away from intersections, including driveways, I imagine city lawyers would have a problem with broken sightlines. And, of course, trimming up a conifer to remove low branches is just plain wrong.

'True dat' on salt damage. I suppose it is more obvious with conifers which often show yellow, often on the road side even if still alive. Off-topic, but some ornamental conifers, likely not native, are susceptible to 'freezer burn'.

 

[Northern Light]

And, of course, trimming up a conifer to remove low branches is just plain wrong.

Now here's the funny thing.

I'm sure you've had occasion to walk in a conifer forest.

When you have, did you notice that most species drop all their lower branches?

They do.

from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_coniferous_forest#/media/File:Las_sosnowy_swiezy02.jpg

Conifers are absolutely ruthless at dropping branches that don't pull in more energy from the sun than they cost the tree to sustain.

So in a forest setting, where very little light gets to the forest floor, lower branches are dropped aggressively.

But this would not naturally occur in most boulevard settings, where the the lower branches would see ample sun.

****

In terms of lower conifer branches becoming obstructive (non-visually), certainly that can happen; though a on a decent sized boulevard, not for a few years.

The City already sends crews around to trim trees every 5-6 years, both to minimize liability from falling branches, but also to shape trees around hydro wires.

It wouldn't be a huge deal to have the same crews drop a row or two of low branches on a conifer.

Though, that does bring up one thing about conifers in relation to streets with above grade wires.

You can't really be cutting the crown off a conifer if its growing straight into the wires.

Aside from looking stupid, the tree will (if it doesn't die) end up bending the next highest branch up to be become the new leader, and the problem will repeat.

So conifers aren't a great choice for directly under low-slung wires.

 

[lenaitch]

Now here's the funny thing.

I'm sure you've had occasion to walk in a conifer forest.

When you have, did you notice that most species drop all their lower branches?

They do.

View attachment 318497
from: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temperate_coniferous_forest#/media/File:Las_sosnowy_swiezy02.jpg

Conifers are absolutely ruthless at dropping branches that don't pull in more energy from the sun than they cost the tree to sustain.

So in a forest setting, where very little light gets to the forest floor, lower branches are dropped aggressively.

But this would not naturally occur in most boulevard settings, where the the lower branches would see ample sun.

****

In terms of lower conifer branches becoming obstructive (non-visually), certainly that can happen; though a on a decent sized boulevard, not for a few years.

The City already sends crews around to trim trees every 5-6 years, both to minimize liability from falling branches, but also to shape trees around hydro wires.

It wouldn't be a huge deal to have the same crews drop a row or two of low branches on a conifer.

Though, that does bring up one thing about conifers in relation to streets with above grade wires.

You can't really be cutting the crown off a conifer if its growing straight into the wires.

Aside from looking stupid, the tree will (if it doesn't die) end up bending the next highest branch up to be become the new leader, and the problem will repeat.

So conifers aren't a great choice for directly under low-slung wires.

Oh for sure. We have a lot of Red Pine around here. We have a spruce in the backyard with 'dead' lower branches that my wife wants trimmed. I can't convince her that the branches have become redundant because of nearby trees and the spruce is just fine.

Yes, trimming around wires can result in some interesting shapes. Although it seems Scots Pine sometimes do that all but themselves.

 

[lenaitch]

Here's one for your @Northern Light. This tree is on a neighbouring property that is unoccupied (never finished/occupied for over 25 years - the pride of the neighbourhood).

Best I can figure, it is some kind of clone of a Norway Maple and a Crimson King Norway Maple variant. There are two main trunks, one for each 'colour'; the green side is larger and represents about 2/3 of the foliage.

Thoughts?