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The "School District" question

Absolutely! they know about public schools, and not just the ones in affluent neighbourhoods.
Every university has a whole department of people whose job it is to know about schools, their different strengths and weaknesses and how their students generally perform - both in terms of the grades they receive at high school and their later success rate once those alumni reach university. Admissions offices access statistical information about schools, and regularly visit schools where applicants come from – partly to sell the university to potential applicants, but also to scope out the school, including the quality of its staff and extra-curricular opportunities available to students. Admissions departments attend art and drama showcases, science fairs etc. etc.
Universities are not solely focused on schools in affluent areas either – the real goal is to identify individual students who are going to be the highest achievers once they arrive at university. A high performing student from a well-resourced environment (good private or public school, tutoring etc.), who has maxed out their potential is less attractive than the brilliant student who is achieving less because they don’t have access to the same opportunities.

AmJ
I guarantee you they don't have the time to do it as extensively as you claim. There are way too many variables for them to build any sort of systematic model that would incorporate all of this. Factor in the correlation/causation problem and the return on their time invested would be very low. Furthermore, the publicized examples of students being accepted based on grades received at private "diploma mills" pretty much blows this argument out of the water.
 
I guarantee you they don't have the time to do it as extensively as you claim. There are way too many variables for them to build any sort of systematic model that would incorporate all of this. Factor in the correlation/causation problem and the return on their time invested would be very low. Furthermore, the publicized examples of students being accepted based on grades received at private "diploma mills" pretty much blows this argument out of the water.

This is a good point, jpmelito. At the risk of turning this thread off topic and into a discussion about our education system, I do recall a couple of Toronto Star investigations into such schools.

Here's one: http://www.thestar.com/news/article...cking-off-gets-high-marks-at-this-high-school

Star investigation: Slacking off gets high marks at this ‘high school’

Published On Fri Sep 16 2011
Jennifer Yang
Staff Reporter

We were a classroom full of underachievers.

The bright but aloof teenager who failed chemistry because he skipped nearly an entire semester. The bespectacled girl who consistently came to class an hour late and rarely wrote anything down because she took notes “with my mind.”

And then there was me, a Toronto Star reporter posing as a summer school student upgrading her Grade 12 chemistry mark so she could apply for nursing college. I was a mediocre pupil at best: I barely studied, never handed in homework and failed most of my tests.

But after completing a four-week, watered-down chemistry course at a private high school called Toronto Collegiate Institute, or TCI, the three of us walked away with marks we wanted — but did not deserve.

For the month of July, I spent four hours a day in a Scarborough classroom as part of a Star investigation into alleged high school “credit mills,” a growing problem in Ontario where private schools are essentially handing out credits and grades for a fee.

What I observed was troubling: a credit course scheduled for 84 hours of classroom time instead of the 110 minimum required by the Ministry of Education; a teacher assisting students on tests or revealing questions beforehand; a struggling student permitted to rewrite tests she failed, open book; a student granted his credit after registering late and attending only the last week of the class.

Since 2009, the Ministry of Education has received dozens of complaints about private schools inflating marks — at least three were about TCI. One complaint filed by a guidance counsellor last year involved an R.H. King Academy student who had math marks ranging from 28 per cent to 57 per cent. That student went to TCI for Grade 12 calculus and scored 84 per cent.

The ministry is responsible for inspecting private schools but oversight is lax. According to documents obtained through freedom of information requests, TCI was inspected at least four times between 2005 and 2009 and consistently failed to assess and evaluate students in accordance with provincial standards.

Nevertheless, the Scarborough school was allowed to continue operating and granting credits. Between 2005 and 2009, at least 651 students have obtained high school credits from TCI.

In an interview with the Star, the school director, Sivam Mahalingam, said he is committed to improving the quality of education being offered at TCI, which is still a relatively new school.

He admitted to breaching provincial rules by offering a chemistry course 26 hours short of the ministry requirement. Mahalingam said he decided to shorten the course because summer students “can’t stay that long” and the teacher taught two subjects back-to-back and was “tired.”

But on the question of mark inflation, Mahalingam flatly denied that his school was giving students an easy ride.

“We don’t just pass the student, no,” he said. “It’s not (like) we are for easy marks, no, we don’t do that.”

But in my class this summer, the boy who failed chemistry at his regular high school emerged from TCI with a glowing mark of 88 per cent. The bespectacled girl — who had a 20 per cent average going into her final exam at TCI — received a final grade of 75 per cent, a mark that was mathematically impossible.

My final mark also defied mathematical logic. Going into my final exam, I had a middling 60 per cent average. I was told my final exam would be worth 30 per cent of my overall grade — that means the highest mark I could hope for was 72, but I would have to get a perfect score on my final exam.

I did not score perfect on my final exam. Yet, I wound up receiving a final chemistry mark of 72 per cent anyway — and then, the teacher arbitrarily boosted that by another 13 percentage points.

My final grade: 85 per cent.

It didn’t take much for me to be accepted as a student at TCI. All I had to do was hand over a doctored high school transcript, $500 in cash (plus a $50 registration fee) and another $35 for a photocopied, ring-bound textbook.

Although the ministry requires private schools to verify students’ identities, I did not provide any proof of identification to Mahalingam. He asked me to bring it in at a later date but I never did and he never followed up.

TCI is located in a scrubby business plaza at 50 Weybright Court, near Midland and Sheppard Aves. The Scarborough school is primarily attended by South Asian students, many who say they know Mahalingam — or Sivaji, as students call him — through friends or relatives.

The 39-year-old said he got into the teaching business because he wanted to help students perform better in school. He mentioned a gang problem within the Tamil community and said TCI has helped troubled youth graduate high school and go on to college or university.

Mahalingam said he is a University of Ottawa-trained engineer but began a tutoring service in 2002, which eventually became TCI. He said he is always looking to improve his school so he enrolled in teacher’s college at Oshawa’s University of Ontario Institute of Technology, graduating with distinction just this year.

These days at TCI, business is booming. In the summer of 2006, its first term as a credit-granting school, TCI had just 18 students, according to ministry inspection reports. By the 2008-2009 school year, there were 250.

Summer sessions have fewer students and my class was small, with only nine other students in my chemistry course. The school has four classrooms, with larger rooms partitioned by curtains to create more teaching space. Security cameras are mounted in classrooms, where students sit at fold-out tables under neon lights.

Mahalingam is like a pied piper for slackers craving an easy grade. Struggling students flock to TCI because they know it will be drastically easier than their regular high schools. One of my classmates — a recent high school graduate upgrading his chemistry mark — said he heard about TCI from two friends who took their entire Grade 12 course load there. He said one went on to be accepted at the University of Waterloo and the other got into the University of Toronto.

Because TCI has a reputation for being a cakewalk, there is an expectation amongst students that they will get their money’s worth. “Why would I pay all that money to get a 75? Then I would just take (the course) in (public) school,” said one female student in my class.

Another classmate bemoaned the $500-per-course price tag but said the effortless marks make TCI worthwhile.

“It’s easier, way easier,” she said. “That’s why everybody comes here. (We) don’t even look at the five (hundred dollar) bills.”

This student confessed she does feel guilty because her cash-strapped family has already forked over $3,000 for six courses at TCI. Her family resorted to paying for her education because she “screwed up” in public school, she said.

But even at TCI, she exerted minimal effort, failing all of her unit tests this summer. Her lack of trying did not translate to a failing report card, however — this is the same bespectacled student who ultimately scored 75 per cent in chemistry, a mark that puts her in a competitive enough position for the university health-care programs she’s been eyeing.

She said the teacher helped boost her mark by letting her rewrite the tests she failed, open book — meaning, the second time around, she was allowed to consult her notes and textbook.

Mahalingam said TCI employs about 10 teachers, with starting wages at $20 an hour. He claimed his teachers are all accredited by the Ontario College of Teachers but would not provide a list of his staff.

My Chemistry 12 teacher, Martina Rodrigues, said she only began teaching at TCI in the last school year. But amongst students, she already has a reputation for being one of the toughest teachers, mainly because she emphasizes attendance and prohibits talking during class.

According to the Ontario College of Teachers’ website, Rodrigues has a master of science from India, as well as a teaching degree and doctorate in philosophy.

She knows her material well and appears to genuinely care about her students.

But Rodrigues repeatedly reassured us she would do whatever she could to help us get our marks up. She said she wanted everyone to “love the subject” and would feel guilty giving poor grades to students who tried hard.

“Even if a student doesn’t deserve a mark, I’ll give it because I feel bad,” she told the class once. “I see you guys working. But I can’t change an answer to give you a mark. That’s cheating.”

Instead, Rodrigues accommodated us in other ways. Her exam questions were exceedingly easy. Mid-test, she added bonus questions to pump up marks or allowed us to skip over certain questions we found too difficult.

Rodrigues also gave “review” sessions an hour before each test, revealing several questions that would be asked and giving students time to quickly prepare for them before she handed out test papers.

“Is there nuclear fusion on the sun?” she asked once, urging everyone to find the answer in our textbooks before we began writing our tests. That question appeared on the test.

Prior to our final exam, Rodrigues urged us to quickly study the differences in the structures of ammonia and water molecules. A major question later appeared on the exam, worth several points, testing us on the differences in the structures of ammonia and water molecules.

“Oh my God, I am such a bad teacher, giving you the questions,” Rodrigues said, looking pained.

Rodrigues explicitly assisted me on several questions during my final exam as well. She discreetly pointed to a correct multiple choice answer, gave me the answer to a true or false question, supplied me with an equation I needed and checked over my calculations. I also saw her giving step-by-step instructions to my seatmate on how to solve a long-answer problem.

At the end of the course, Rodrigues met with students individually to discuss our marks. I had previously said to her that I hoped for at least an 80 per cent overall; she assured me she would try her best as long as I “worked my butt off” for the final exam.

During our last meeting, Rodrigues told me I had “earned” a 72 per cent but she would boost my grade by another 13 percentage points.

“I’m going to bump it up,” she said, urging me not to tell the other students about her favour. “I’m adding marks to this because you’ve done well.”

Rodrigues implied that she received authorization from Mahalingam to raise my grade. “That is what he is telling me, that you and (another student in class) can get up,” she said.

Repeated attempts to reach Rodrigues after the course ended were unsuccessful.

In a follow-up interview, Mahalingam said the reason I received 13 additional points was because I was a college-bound student who had completed a chemistry class designed to prepare students for university. He said Rodrigues made the judgment call to grant me the extra marks based on my “performance” and as a reward for completing a more difficult course.

According to my classmates who have taken multiple courses at TCI, other teachers are even more lenient than Rodrigues. One girl said a past teacher slept during tests or left the classroom, thus allowing students to cheat easily. Another classmate gloated about his math teacher answering entire exam questions for him; that same teacher ended the class one week early because he wanted to go on vacation, the student said.

Mahalingam said he has faith in his staff and was unaware of these allegations until now.

“It didn’t come to my attention,” he said. “Definitely I will take action.”

In an interview with Star reporter Robert Cribb, Education Minister Leona Dombrowsky acknowledged the need to ensure the integrity of credits being granted by private schools. When informed of the inappropriate grades I received at TCI, she said it “would be very troubling” for such back-room mark inflation to occur.

“It would be a very dangerous process to employ,” Dombrowsky said. “The concern I have (is) for those students and for the family who, in good faith, would expect that the marks they receive would, in fact, be the marks they have earned.”

According to R.H. King Academy teacher Jennifer Wilson, increasing numbers of students at her school are turning to private institutions like TCI to boost their grades. The veteran high school chemistry teacher said she was “shocked” to hear that Grade 12 chemistry credits were being granted to students who spent just 84 hours in a classroom.

Wilson said credit mills are unfair because they take university spots or scholarships away from more deserving students. At TCI this summer, one of my male classmates took Chemistry 12 to hang on to an athletics scholarship to a Toronto-area university. He said he had to upgrade his chemistry mark by 10 per cent or his university offer would be forfeited to another applicant.

The student enrolled at TCI on July 20, with just one week remaining in the course. He said the school allowed him to waive the tests he missed, meaning he only wrote one test and a final exam to complete the course.

Mahalingam confirmed this student received his credit but would not disclose his final mark. He said that because the student was upgrading his chemistry mark, it was permissible for him to show up to just half the classes. Mahalingam also claimed the student compensated for the time he missed by coming to school in the mornings and studying chemistry at the back of Rodrigues’ classroom while she taught a biology course.

Many educators believe the real harm of these so-called credit mills is inflicted upon the students who attend them. They worry that young people are being sent to university woefully unprepared and imbued with a distorted sense of their own capabilities.

At TCI, there is a school motto listed on its flyers and website. It reads: “You are smarter than you think!”

And here is another: http://www.thestar.com/news/article...uestions-marks-from-a-high-school-credit-mill

Star investigation: Student questions marks from a high school ‘credit mill’

Published On Sun Sep 18 2011
By Robert Cribb
Staff Reporter

When Arthur Goldstein enrolled to take three credits at the TCT High School in 2008 and 2009 — at a price of between $500 and $700 each — he knew in advance what he was doing: “It’s basically a black market for high school grades.”

After earning a 74 per cent grade in Grade 12 advanced functions at Don Mills Collegiate, Goldstein says he wasn’t confident he’d get accepted into the biotechnology/economics program at Waterloo where he wanted to go.

“There’s so much pressure to get good grades and get in at such a young age that some people feel like it’s the only way to get in.”

What he discovered at TCT met expectations: Lax attendance policies, “unqualified” teachers who would walk out of the classrooms for exams, leaving students to share answers or use the Wi-Fi connection to find answers on their phones, he says.

“I (would tell the teacher) ‘I can’t do this,’ and I asked her how would you do this question and she just said don’t worry about that question.”

While each credit was supposed to be 110 hours by provincial standard, he says he never came close to investing that kind of time.

Goldstein walked out with a 95 per cent which was transferred to his high school transcript.

He entered Waterloo in September 2009 with an entrance scholarship based on an overall average in the 90s and has since transferred to Ryerson University after switching programs of study.

Goldstein, 21, says even though he saw a huge disparity in how marks were earned, he was never worried about the validity of his credits because the private school was accredited.

“It was pretty much a sham operation. They’re making a ****load of money off of people who are just trying to get a good grade and that’s not how the school system should be run. I literally knew what I was doing was wrong. There’s a glitch in the system and people are taking advantage of it and I guess I partook in that.”

TCT High School had its credit-granting authority revoked last August by the ministry for a series of “extremely serious issues.”

But by that October, the principal and at least some students transferred to another private school called Durham Secondary Academy and Middle School which moved into TCT’s location on Consumers Rd. in Toronto.

Mario Pietrangelo, listed as principal of TCT High School in ministry documents, is currently a teacher at Durham Secondary Academy.

He did not respond to requests for an interview.

“I accepted students who were left stranded by TCT,” says Durham’s principal, George Vanderkuur.

He blames TCT’s revocation on poor record-keeping by the past administration.

“But my reputation with the Ministry was really, really good,” Vanderkuur says. “So because I took it over, things are back on track.”

Ministry records show two formal complaints filed against Durham Academy for “mark inflation” since December of last year.

In one case, a public school guidance counsellor complained that a student’s English grades rose from 60s at her regular school to 95 per cent at Durham, that the grade was given without completion of the mandatory 110 hours of classroom time, and that the teacher wasn’t qualified to teach the course.

“I think we dealt with that,” said Vanderkuur, 69, whose school charges $980 per course. “I spoke to the Ministry about those.”

Vanderkuur said only about half of his compliment of seven teachers are accredited by the Ontario College of Teachers. Unlike public schools, private schools are not required to hire teachers certified by the Ontario College of Teachers and no education or training is necessary to open a private school.

“By far the worst teachers I’ve had have been accredited (by the Ontario College of Teachers),” he said. “Not everybody is a good teacher just because they get through teachers’ college.”

Vanderkuur, who spent his career in the public system, acknowledges abuses in the private school system.

“It exists. The ministry should have investigators who go around and find out how it’s happening and why it’s happening. An inspector is really like a consultant. They don’t have the resources.”

Another Toronto school that lost its credit-granting authority last year — Eastern Canada High School — continues to operate under the same name at the same location, the investigation has found.

“We never closed our doors,” says Abdinur Farah, principal of the school.

In April of last year, less than a year after opening, Farah was told he would be shut down because of problems with assessment and evaluation.

He quickly reapplied for his authority, which was reissued before his school lost its credit-granting authority in June 2010.

“We did apply as a new school, paid the fees and we were given permission to start the new school in the summer of 2010,” he said in written responses to questions from the Star.

“Our credit-granting authority was restored by the end of the next semester after we passed a series of rigorous inspections.”

Ministry officials say that when a school has its authority to grant credits revoked “there are no specific timelines for which it must wait before re-opening.”

Perhaps the most egregious offences recorded by ministry inspectors over the past five years belong to Toronto College High School.

The school’s problems with the province date back to 2009 when inspectors cited “insufficient interaction between the teacher and students,” insufficient hours for credits, and evaluations that consisted of true/false questions, documents show.

The province removed the school’s authority to grant credits.

Less than 10 months later, principal Paul Pu was back up and running the same school, handing out credits with the province’s blessing.

An April 2010 inspection report found several more problems related to teaching plans, transcripts and record-keeping but allowed the school to remain operating.

Then, four months later, a re-inspection report details the school’s failure to meet provincial standards in all 30 criteria assessed.

Among the startling list of “extremely serious issues” flagged by ministry inspectors were courses scheduled for less than 110 hours (credits were being scheduled for between 40 and 80 hours), “no course calendar,” “no school timetable,” “teaching staff consisted (of) one teacher and a teaching assistant delivering 11 credits,” “no lesson plan, unit plans, course outlines or student work/assessments available.”

The school’s credit-granting authority was again revoked.

Today, Pu is listed in federal documents as the director of a private career college called Toronto College of Technology with locations in Toronto and Mississauga.

Pu declined repeated requests for comment.
 
Thanks for the detailed response, AnnetteMeetsJane. Do you happen to know whether they use the Fraser Institute report cards and EQAO assessments as well?

EQAO yes, Fraser Institute no - each university has its own formula for partialing out things like SES influence on achievement.
 
This is a good point, jpmelito. At the risk of turning this thread off topic and into a discussion about our education system, I do recall a couple of Toronto Star investigations into such schools.

Here's one: http://www.thestar.com/news/article...cking-off-gets-high-marks-at-this-high-school



And here is another: http://www.thestar.com/news/article...uestions-marks-from-a-high-school-credit-mill

A handful of students in each incoming class of 1,000s or 10,000s, and very very often they are international students who are financially worth a lot of money to a university, even if they eventually drop out... University admissions is a numbers game, and GPA is not the only thing that talks.
The TCI alumnus got an "automatic scholarship", but think how many good students were attracted to apply, and then accepted places and wrote tuition checks for four years because they got an entrance scholarship of $1000 once... It works exactly the same was as Rona offering 15% off one purchase this weekend - it gets the punters through the door and then they pay full price for a bunch of other stuff while they are there...
 
I think the following article a few weeks ago in the Toronto Star touch on an important part of a child's education, the one that starts at home. Going back to the original question about school districts, based on the thoughts reiterated in the article, one would deduce that the "higher performing" schools or the more desireable school districts are essentially in the neighborhoods where the parents are more involved in their children's growth and development. The writer states that children in more affluent, educated households improve at a pace faster than in lower-income households. Relating back to real estate, I think it's safe to say that the notion of a "good school district" is probably less attirbuted to the school itself and more with who your neighbors are.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/education/article/1231204--summer-widens-rich-poor-learning-gap

Summer widens rich/poor learning gap

Published on Wednesday July 25, 2012

Louise Brown
Education Reporter

Children in rich, educated families tend to become better readers over the summer — improving at almost the same pace as if they were in school — largely because they have more time with their highly literate parents, new research shows.

But students in less affluent, less educated families can lose almost a month’s worth of reading skill, widening the learning gap between rich and poor while school is closed for the summer.

McMaster University sociology professor Scott Davies, who is leading the landmark study funded by Ontario’s Literacy and Numeracy Secretariat, said the findings underscore the need for intense reading help for high-need students in summer and maybe eventually on weekends and after school, “to take a bite out of that learning gap.â€

The study is the largest ever done in Canada into the “summer setback†in literacy experienced by students in low-income families. While continuing this summer in nearly 40 school boards across the province, pilot programs over the past two years have already shown that children of wealthy, university-educated parents tend to read about five months ahead of their poorest classmates by the end of June each year, and the gap stretches even wider in summer when children are immersed in their diverse family backgrounds without school to level the playing field.

A child who is reading four to five months behind his richer classmates in Grade 1 can fall more than a whole year behind by Grade 3, the study showed. U.S. studies have found summer learning gaps can be early warnings for poor high school marks and even dropping out.

While children whose parents didn’t go past high school generally saw their literacy skills slip by a month (the amount of skill typically gained in a month at school), parents with bachelor’s degrees saw their children’s reading skill actually rise by a month; those with master’s degrees, PhDs and professional degrees — doctors, lawyers and so on — saw their children’s reading skill go up by two months, even though school was closed.

“It’s like French immersion, but I call it socio-economic immersion — there’s nothing like having two months with highly literate parents modeling vocabulary, exposing you to reading; it’s like having your own private tutor or being in summer school at home,†said Davies, who holds the Ontario Research Chair in Educational Achievement and At-Risk Students.

While the benefits of educational camps, family trips, extra books, newspapers and computers account for about 25 per cent of the so-called “summer surge†experienced by children in more affluent families, those things aren’t the key, Davies warned.

“It’s also the daily conversations that are sophisticated and expand children’s vocabularies, and being read to regularly by seasoned readers, one-on-one,†he said in his latest report, to be published in Canadian Public Policy. “This informal role-modeling is available to affluent children seven days per week. Less advantaged children, in contrast, have less constant exposure to those quality resources.â€

But the research project also sponsored about 60 summer literacy camps across 30 school boards over the past two years, targeted at low-income, struggling readers, to see if they make a difference. And they do, Davies said.

The day camps were run for 1,073 children in Grades 1 to 3 from lower-income neighborhoods who were reading below grade level.

Children who participated in the two- to three-week programs improved their reading skill by about 1.5 months over the summer, compared with peers who did not attend.

Meagan Matheson goes to Brian W. Fleming Public School in Mississauga, which ran one of Davies’ literacy day camps this month. It was designed to help students at the school, many of whom are refugees or live in a shelter, boost their reading skills while learning about the fun of Canadian camping.

“Every day, we’d go with our reading teacher for a while to read a book, and sometimes you make a mistake, but then you can learn,†said Meagan, who is entering Grade 4.

Principal Christine Parr said the free program gave struggling readers nearly an hour of small-group reading help every morning, as well as field trips to a beach and ice cream parlor, activities they might not have had the chance to enjoy with their families.

“Background knowledge is what helps us understand stories we read, but if your background knowledge is different than what comes up on Ontario tests or curriculum, you won’t understand,†Parr noted.

“One student from Afghanistan asked me if t splash pad at the park was the lake,†she said, “so I turned her around and showed her what a real lake looks like.â€
 
I remember reading this Toronto Life article with some bemusement when it was printed in 2008.

Now, with a baby on the way, I broke into a cold sweat re-reading it!

jackman.jpg


http://www.torontolife.com/features/ps-i-love-you/

"...The crowding of Jackman school has inspired other desperate measures, including a brisk trade in forged addresses. One couple successfully snuck their two children through Jackman while living in Cabbage*town, all the way to Grade 6 graduation. Other parents borrow the addresses of friends or family within Jackman’s catchment area to register their kids. A mother I spoke to described how she was approached by a work colleague with a request to borrow her address. Then there was the Craigslist posting a year ago that offered cash in exchange for use of a Jackman-area address and for the concomitant mail-collection services..."
 
I remember reading this Toronto Life article with some bemusement when it was printed in 2008.

Now, with a baby on the way, I broke into a cold sweat re-reading it!

http://www.torontolife.com/features/ps-i-love-you/

"...The crowding of Jackman school has inspired other desperate measures, including a brisk trade in forged addresses. One couple successfully snuck their two children through Jackman while living in Cabbage*town, all the way to Grade 6 graduation. Other parents borrow the addresses of friends or family within Jackman’s catchment area to register their kids. A mother I spoke to described how she was approached by a work colleague with a request to borrow her address. Then there was the Craigslist posting a year ago that offered cash in exchange for use of a Jackman-area address and for the concomitant mail-collection services..."

Thanks for posting that article. Although it's 4 years old, it's still relevant today, only the names are different and the property values even higher. It's amazing, albeit not surprising, what people will do for sought-after public schools.
 
I recently brought this issue up with a friend whose sister teaches Grade 5 at a highly touted east end school.

She says that the moment the students graduate from Grade 6 many of the parents enroll their kids in nearby private schools for Grade 7. Firstly, because the reputation of their respective public elementary school nearly rivaled that of private institutions in the city, and secondly, the local public middle school has feeder elementary schools from lower income and immigrant neighbourhoods, which, *presumably* could jeopardize the quality of education, level of after-school activities, and even student safety.
 
I would never consider moving out of an otherwise great house and neighbourhood in order to get my kids into the "right" school district. First of all, we parents seem to forget that your kids will be elementary/middle school students for ten years, and high school students for four more. Presumably you buy a house before you have kids and intend to live in it after the kids are gone, so why let the kids dictate where you live? In 1998 when my wife and I bought our house in Cabbagetown we noticed that our neighbours kept leaving whenever their kids were school aged. I finally asked one couple as they were packing up to move to their new Forest Hill home with the Filipino nanny, and they said they didn't feel the demographic of poor and lower class kids in Regent Park, street grit (homeless, beggars, drunks, etc. on Parliament St.) and poor quality schools were good for their kids. Well, I met this same couple several years later wandering the Cabbagetown Festival and they said it was big mistake, their kids are now in high school and never home, and they miss the community feel of Cabbagetown, and their old Victorian semi.

Kids are temporary, moving from a house you otherwise love to cater to the wee ones is a losing game. In short few years your kids are adults and gone, but you're living with a house made for them. I suppose if you like flipping houses every ten years then this might work, but I intend to keep the house I first bought when we got married forever. Now, before you all think I'm just the worst parent since Magda Goebbels, my wife and I saw the potential in downtown Toronto for our kids. We intentionally moved back from NB because we wanted them to have an urban, unsheltered upbringing. As for the quality of schools, we dealt with that by having in-home math tutors, music teachers, YMCA swim lessons and gymnastics, and by being involved parents, with lots of reading, board games, family time, etc. Two other things, the TV is never on during the week or Sunday evenings, and we discovered that the local kids were great kids and a good influence for our kids, as no one pushes their kids to excel in school like recent immigrants. Best of all, these folks, like us, raise their own kids, no nannies here. As for the local poor quality school (was poor because of administration and other factors, not the students), we pulled our kids out and moved them to another school not far away, where several of their friends from Regent Park and CT already attend.

So, IMO, buy the house you want, not the house you think will benefit your kids. Your children are a lifetime blessing, but as kids they are a temporary blip in your life.
 
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I don't know... if you end up in a school with a bunch of no good kids, then your kids - who, like all other kids plays monkey see monkey do - will get influenced by them and end up being bad themselves... what ends up then one can only imagine.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/9...nitrogen-drinks-after-girl-loses-stomach.html

Yes you do mention it's only 10 years or so, but that's still alot of years and reversing a habit that you picked up can be something very hard - especially a kid who's now a teen.
If you still think the house is more important than your kid who you need to teach and be their guardian, good luck.
My opinion. I'm sure there's others. Bear in mind, I do think exposing kids to everything is a good thing as well. I came from what I would consider an ok crowd... though as in any school, there will be good kids & bad kids... it's about relative %'ages
 
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If you still think the house is more important than your kid who you need to teach and be their guardian, good luck.
That's also what I thought when I read that post.

Also:

1. If they really like Cabbage Town, they can simply move back in a few years. Considering that Forest Hill homes generally cost more than Cabbage Town homes, they could even profit by moving back. People aren't locked to homes forever.

2. If they were going to stay in Cabbage Town, and didn't like the schools in their neighbourhood, they could have considered a private school for their kids. However, that would have cost extra money and time, so in some ways moving might have been the better decision.

Where I live, the high school is a well rated one. If I lived across the street, the high school is a different one, and is poorly rated. If I lived across the street, I'd consider putting my (future) kid in a private school or even moving. But since I live on my side of the street, I can choose to just use the public high school. That said, for families like Admiral describes, that well-rated school in my district might not be "rich" enough for their tastes, since the school has a catchment area that includes a lot of students from lower socioeconomic circumstances.
 
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So, IMO, buy the house you want, not the house you think will benefit your kids. Your children are a lifetime blessing, but as kids they are a temporary blip in your life.

Why not buy the house you want in the neighborhood that will benefit your kids the most? :eek:
 

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