News   Aug 12, 2024
Queen & Ashbridge's Buildings Top Off in The Beach
 695     2 
News   Aug 12, 2024
Niagara Region Proposes Redevelopment of Former Police HQ in St Catharines
 1.8K     0 
News   Aug 12, 2024
News Roundup for August 12, 2024
 597     0 

The geographic divide in Toronto

canarob said:
I'm biased, but aside from old Oakville and some of the areas along the lake, I would argue much of York is just as nice or nicer. Neighbourhoods and cities like Unionville and King City aren't on a major corridor like Yonge or Bayview and are still very expensive (especially compared to the neighbourhoods you'd find directly south of Steeles). As mentioned above, the strong local job market helps to support this, as well as decent GO and highway connections to Toronto.
Click to expand...

That's a good point. King Township, the premier exurban country estate area, I believe is the wealthiest 905 municipality and one of the wealthiest in Canada and has among the highest housing prices in the GTA (i.e. no townhouse/condo options).

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/302370--king-township-bridle-path-of-the-north

In some ways York Region is kind of like New Jersey to Halton's Connecticut...
 
% in managerial or professional occupations by selected 905 municipality:

Oakville 41.7%
Richmond Hill 39.8%
Aurora 37.9%
Markham 35.7%
King 34.9%
Burlington 33.6%
Whitchurch 32.6%
Milton 31.8%
Vaughan 31.3%
Whitby 30.9%
Caledon 30%
Newmarket 29.7%
Pickering 29.1%
Mississauga 28.1%
Ajax 27.3%
Brampton 19.4%
Oshawa 19.3%
 
King of Kensington said:
That's a good point. King Township, the premier exurban country estate area, I believe is the wealthiest 905 municipality and one of the wealthiest in Canada and has among the highest housing prices in the GTA (i.e. no townhouse/condo options).

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/302370--king-township-bridle-path-of-the-north

In some ways York Region is kind of like New Jersey to Halton's Connecticut...
Click to expand...

Yeah, it's comparing apples and oranges since it's a higher percentage of large detached homes and two-income households, but York has the highest overall cost of housing of all regions, and King is the most expensive municipality. This still means that on average people paid more for their homes in York, even if they got far more than in Downtown Toronto, etc., so it's a good measure of wealth.

See year to date numbers:
http://www.torontorealestateboard.com/market_news/market_watch/2012/mw1209.pdf
 
OK not literally "no" townhouse/condo options:

http://www.moneyville.ca/article/1024918--king-township-maintains-green-brand

Nonetheless King almost certainly remains the most self-consciously "exclusive" (i.e. in terms of zoning etc.) community in the GTA.

But yeah, people in York do pay more for their dwellings than in the 416...not to mention the population is skewed far more toward homeowners (a much more affluent demographic) than renters.
 
RC8 said:
It was significantly cheaper than any desirable location in Toronto, and had much lower taxes (making it more profitable per square foot - i.e. cheaper).
Click to expand...

Again, you seem to be pulling figures out of thin air. NYCC was desirable, up until the the implementation of CVA. It still is from an employment standpoint, but not from an office development one. Qualifying your argument by desirability is at odds with history. Perhaps you could explain the figures in chart 2-1 here......
http://torontoofficecoalition.com/pdf/CUI-Business_Competitiveness.pdf

What you don't seem to grasp is that the only reason taxes were and remain so low, and thus one of the reasons Mississauga was and remains more profitable than the inner suburbs is because of the externalisation of costs that is made possible by a city under continuous expansion.
Click to expand...



Nope. You are referring to is Mississauga not being burdened by aging infrastructure. In the future Mississauga will have to devote some money for SoGR. They should have little difficulty doing this as they have very little debt.

Mississauga can keep residential taxes higher than commercial taxes because residential property values in Mississauga still remain low. They remain low because the built form encourages the externalisation of land costs onto energy for transportation.
Click to expand...

Residential taxes are not higher than commercial ones in Mississauga, nor or residential values low and similar land is more expensive than in Toronto.
 
Last edited:
To use Mitt Romney's analogy, the 416 is the GTA's "47%" while 905 are the "job creators", productive citizens, etc. I think this is Glen's point.
 
King of Kensington said:
To use Mitt Romney's analogy, the 416 is the GTA's "47%" while 905 are the "job creators", productive citizens, etc. I think this is Glen's point.
Click to expand...

I can't fathom how you drew that analogy.
 
If we divide the GTA into three suburban zones:

Western suburbs - i.e. Etobicoke, Peel and Halton
Northern suburbs - North York, York region
Eastern suburbs - Scarborough, Durham

Or into five:

Western: central Etobicoke, Port Credit, Streetsville, Oakville, Milton, etc.
Northwestern: Brampton, Malton, Rexdale, Downsview, Woodbridge, King, Caledon, etc.
Northern: Willowdale, Thornhill, Richmond Hill, Aurora, etc.
Northeastern: Don Mills, Agincourt, Markham, Unionville, maybe Brooklin
Eastern: central Scarborough, West Hill, South Pickering, Ajax, etc.
 
Generally there is a pattern of linear suburban development in Toronto (as is the case in other cities) with the affluent Yonge zone spreading northward etc. and also with regard to ethnic communities - i.e. Jews northerly up Bathurst from College and Spadina into Forest Hill, North York and Thornhill; Italians north and northwest from College and Grace along Dufferin into Dufferin/St. Clair, Downsview, and then northwesterly into Woodbridge; Poles and Ukrainians westerly from Bathurst and Queen into Parkdale and High Park and then onto Etobicoke and Mississauga. The Portuguese seem to be following the Italians a bit (certainly past St. Clair West) but then shift west after that to Mississauga and Brampton. The Chinese went from Dundas and Spadina and expanded to into 2nd Chinatown Gerrard and Broadview, then leapfrogged either to Willowdale or Agincourt and then Richmond Hill and Markham, skipping over a lot of territory in the process - though my guess is that the most affluent Chinese are generally closer to Bayview. (Of course there are now significant communities which have no history of inner city settlement at all, like Sikhs in Malton and Gore.)

Thus we see an obvious pattern: with Peel being the most Etobicoke-like, York being the most North York-like and Durham being the most Scarborough-like, although all have at least so far (given their zoning, more SFHs, etc.) have contained themselves from "spillover" deemed most undesirable. Peel has been the least "successful" in this regard (as it is the most outer 416-like of the 905), while York seems to have been the most (i.e. they take in upwardly mobile Jews, Italians and Chinese from North York but the more working class Black population for instance has not moved there in any significant numbers). Dowsview/"Yorkview" (which basically borders an industrial park) and Rexdale (which granted is in Etobicoke, borders Italian Woodbridge) migrates westward rather than northward, toward Brampton.
 
Last edited:
King of Kensington said:
Thus we see an obvious pattern: with Peel being the most Etobicoke-like, York being the most North York-like and Durham being the most Scarborough-like, although all have at least so far (given their zoning, more SFHs, etc.) have contained themselves from "spillover" deemed most undesirable. Peel has been the least "successful" in this regard (as it is the most outer 416-like of the 905), while York seems to have been the most (i.e. they take in upwardly mobile Jews, Italians and Chinese from North York but the more working class Black population for instance has not moved there in any significant numbers). Dowsview/"Yorkview" (which basically borders an industrial park) and Rexdale (which granted is in Etobicoke, borders Italian Woodbridge) migrates westward rather than northward, toward Brampton.
Click to expand...
Mostly agree there. Peel, Durham and Milton have a lot more blue collar jobs than the rest of Halton and York. This means they have a greater inventory of modest housing, which is also slightly older in Peel than Halton/York. The cost difference in equivalent housing (ex a new 2000 sf house with 40ft frontage) seems to be relatively small. Peel has loads of 30-50 year old small houses, apartments and townhouses.
 
I'm not sure who the "undesirables" are, but I think it's the "undesirables" that have made Mississauga and Brampton a lot better for transit than any of the other 905 suburbs.

On a side note, I think it's somewhat useless to refer to "Peel", when you're really referring to Mississauga and Brampton. Caledon is kind of on its own and doesn't have much in common with Mississauga and Brampton. You could probably lump it in with Woodbridge and the other northern municipalities.
 
Yes, Mississauga and Brampton are the most "urban" of the 905 suburbs. York Region in spite of the overpriced Viva buses is much more car-dependent and has more of the classic affluent outer suburbia feel. And that's the way they like it, this SUV and big house country, where the peak oil will turn suburbia into slums theory falls on deaf ears.

And Caledon indeed has more in common with Vaughan and King than Brampton, but makes up maybe 5% of Peel.
 
Last edited:
King of Kensington said:
Yes, Mississauga and Brampton are the most "urban" of the 905 suburbs. York Region in spite of the overpriced Viva buses is much more car-dependent and has more of the classic affluent outer suburbia feel. And that's the way they like it, this SUV and big house country, where the peak oil will turn suburbia into slums theory falls on deaf ears.
Click to expand...

When peak oil does hit, the VIVA rapidways can be converted to LRT and GO will hopefully be a true inter-regional service. Plus York's guidelines for new communities will mean higher overall densities moving forward across the entire region. The existing sprawl will shrink and new urbanist-style developments will grow as a percentage of overall housing. It won't stop people from driving SUVs, but York will be better prepared than most places in North America for expensive oil.
 
You must log in or register to post here.

Back
Top