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The Beer Store: Political Reasons to Keep/Kill It

I need clarification on how beer will be sold in grocery stores. Can or will the beer be able to mixed in with my milk and bread? Or will we have to use a separate cashier who will check id, take your fingerprints, do a retina scan, have you take a lie detector, do a medical exam, before you can purchase that beer?
 
I've seen 70-year olds photo IDed in New York grocery stores. While it's better than lining up twice (or 3 times if you want wine as well), it does seem a little silly; if the 70-year old had forgotten their photo-ID at home, would you refuse the sale?

Why not - the rules are the rules. If a 70 year old had forgotten their drivers license at home, would you allow them to drive? Besides, enforcement in this context isn't about the age of the individual or whether they are legally entitled to purchase alcohol, but that deviation from the ID rule isn't something you can allow on an ad-hoc because of a cashier's personal judgement of someone's age.

AoD
 
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re: checkout

I am not even sure why you need two checkouts - one specifically for alcohol and nothing else. All you needed is two kinds of cashiers - one that can handle groceries only (lock out against beer UPCs), and the other groceries and booze. Staff the latter with adult employees who must request photo ID. Not rocket science here.

I was recently in Louisiana, where every store (convenience store, drugstore, supermarket, souvenir store) is kind of a liquor store as well. I went through the self-checkout at a CVS and someone at the next terminal scanned some alcohol. That prompted a 'You have scanned an age-restricted item' message ... it just means a store employee has to validate the purchase. That's all.
 
I was recently in Louisiana, where every store (convenience store, drugstore, supermarket, souvenir store) is kind of a liquor store as well. I went through the self-checkout at a CVS and someone at the next terminal scanned some alcohol. That prompted a 'You have scanned an age-restricted item' message ... it just means a store employee has to validate the purchase. That's all.

The whole 2 tier system is just a nod to the supposed rule that you can't have someone under legal drinking age to facilitate the purchase of alcohol. If that isn't an issue, a item-based system would be perfect (and by the same token, you can lockout anyone who tried to bypass the process by using self-serve terminals as well).

AoD
 
The Mormon church runs Utah, and that church is crazy, like Scientology crazy.

If you ever have a chance get a tour of their "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Conference Center" in Salt Lake City. There are almost always volunteers in the lobby offering tours. The main stage (there is more than one) has more seating than the ACC and with far nicer finishes. As a bonus, they should take you to the portrait area with all the former church leaders; remarkably little visible genetic variation for this role over the last few hundred years.
 
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If you ever have a chance get a tour of their "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Conference Center" in Salt Lake City. There are almost always volunteers in the lobby offering tours. The main stage (there is more than one) has more seating than the ACC and with far nicer finishes.

Yikes, that's what tithe gets you I suppose. To get an idea of what we're talking about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDS_Conference_Center

Well, at least they haven't gotten their fingers onto the distribution of coffee and tea - I just can't imagine the baristas prepping their craft behind veil.

AoD
 
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If you ever have a chance get a tour of their "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints Conference Center" in Salt Lake City. There are almost always volunteers in the lobby offering tours. The main stage (there is more than one) has more seating than the ACC and with far nicer finishes.

They have a pretty impressive facility a lot closer to Toronto than SLC too.
 
TOareaFan, everyone in Ontario has grown up only ever knowing a system where beer and liquor are sold in special stores and nowhere else. They see beer in supermarkets as a fuzzy hypothetical concept. But once beer starts to be sold at Sobeys, people will start to realize how much easier it is to buy food, beer and wine in a single trip. Once that door is open then it will start to matter to people. And they will realize that they're forced to pay more for 24 beers at the supermarket for no reason. Saving a few bucks matters to people. How do you think Wal-Mart stays in business

I think almost all people in Ontario are completely aware of how alcohol is available in most other places, either through visiting US states or Quebec directly, or by word of mouth/news. This isn't at all a secret. It's very common, basic knowledge.
 
TOareaFan, everyone in Ontario has grown up only ever knowing a system where beer and liquor are sold in special stores and nowhere else. They see beer in supermarkets as a fuzzy hypothetical concept. But once beer starts to be sold at Sobeys, people will start to realize how much easier it is to buy food, beer and wine in a single trip. Once that door is open then it will start to matter to people. And they will realize that they're forced to pay more for 24 beers at the supermarket for no reason. Saving a few bucks matters to people. How do you think Wal-Mart stays in business?

And sometimes convenience is worth a few bucks here or there...how do you think Mac's Milk stays in business?


Nobody said that it was.

Was expressing an opinion based on the discussion and media coverage. Not a lot of headlines being written (outside of business pages) about our increasing deficit.....but you can spill a ton of ink on beer sales!
 
TOareaFan, everyone in Ontario has grown up only ever knowing a system where beer and liquor are sold in special stores and nowhere else. They see beer in supermarkets as a fuzzy hypothetical concept. But once beer starts to be sold at Sobeys, people will start to realize how much easier it is to buy food, beer and wine in a single trip. Once that door is open then it will start to matter to people. And they will realize that they're forced to pay more for 24 beers at the supermarket for no reason. Saving a few bucks matters to people. How do you think Wal-Mart stays in business?


Nobody said that it was.

I predict the average person will care about it as much as they care about overhead wires. That is to say only the nerds will rage about it.
 
I think almost all people in Ontario are completely aware of how alcohol is available in most other places, either through visiting US states or Quebec directly, or by word of mouth/news. This isn't at all a secret. It's very common, basic knowledge.
True, but it's still kind of a "we don't do things that way here" kind of thing. But beer being sold in supermarkets could be a game changer.

And sometimes convenience is worth a few bucks here or there...how do you think Mac's Milk stays in business?

Was expressing an opinion based on the discussion and media coverage. Not a lot of headlines being written (outside of business pages) about our increasing deficit.....but you can spill a ton of ink on beer sales!
Yes and people would probably be willing to spend more for beer at Mac's Milk. But they're not accustomed to paying inflated prices at FreshCo.

Plenty of headlines get written written about relatively minor issues. Rob Ford smoking crack was hardly the biggest issue the province faced either. Or the 407 extension or the NHL draft lottery or anything else the media gets excited about. In any case, you sure do post a lot about this for someone who doesn't care.

I predict the average person will care about it as much as they care about overhead wires. That is to say only the nerds will rage about it.
Yup, we should ignore how the rest of the Western world does things and come up with our own inferior solutions. It's the Ontario way! :D
 
Yes and people would probably be willing to spend more for beer at Mac's Milk. But they're not accustomed to paying inflated prices at FreshCo.

Limiting to Freshco is a strange choice...for 1, my point is that people pay for convenience all the time....they pay to drive on a highway even though there are fee choices...they buy little tubs of ice cream in convenience stores cause that is where they are when they want ice cream....the 400 or so licenses available will be the convenience and people will either pay the premium for buying beer in six packs or not but I doubt people who don't care about the issue of where beer is sold will start caring more because one more outlet has been added.....for 2) I doubt the people bidding for the licenses will focus their sales in their lower margin outlets like Freshco. I would suspect Sobey's will focus on their higher margin main stores...as would the other grocers.

In any case, you sure do post a lot about this for someone who doesn't care.

Being addicted to posting on UT...and wanting to share the perspective of someone who doesn't care where beer is sold in this thread is a long way from caring where beer is sold. As I have said repeatedly, I am in no way trying to change people's opinions....just adding the perspective of someone who is baffled how this became an issue....this particular stream started when someone suggested that once the limited sales in grocery stores started that people like me would soon start to care and we would join the fight to expand it.....I seriously doubt that.
 
This says it all. National Post, April 21.

Congratulating Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne last month for rethinking her province’s bizarre and sclerotic liquor retail system — i.e., allowing supermarkets to sell beer — we reserved the right to be disappointed by the details. This has proved sadly apt.

There will indeed be more places to buy beer. But the plan Wynne announced last week, as laid out in a bewildering report from a committee headed by former TD Bank CEO Ed Clark, is clinically bonkers. It reads as if its authors don’t just mistrust the free market, but may never have heard of it.

Where to begin? There will apparently be 450 beer-in-supermarket licences on offer, in a province of 14-million people, someday, but no more than 150 before May 1, 2017. For some reason only urban supermarkets need apply. The stores’ hours will be severely restricted. They will be required to charge exactly the same prices as at the provincially run LCBO and at The Beer Store (TBS), a quasi-monopoly that’s majority-owned by Molson-Coors and Anheuser Busch InBev. They’ll have to stock beer from small breweries regardless of demand.

Most infuriatingly, the newly licensed stores will not be allowed to sell beer in quantities greater than six-packs. That sacred and profitable trust will remain primarily with The Beer Store — although a “pilot project” will allow 10 (!) additional LCBO outlets to offer beer in larger package sizes.


What’s the risk? Clark’s report is at least honest: Allowing the LCBO to sell 12- and 24-packs might “significantly erode the economics of TBS.” And we can’t have that, because TBS’s owners are such lavish contributors to Ontario’s Liberal and Progressive Conservative parties — wait, what are we saying, it’s because TBS is so unimpeachably efficient and cheap!

The Clark committee’s stated purposes are, first, “to materially enhance customer convenience, choice and shopping experience, while continuing to ensure that Ontarians can buy their beer at prices below the Canadian average”; second, to establish a “level playing field” for all brewers; and third, to maintain government revenues. It does not seem to have occurred to them that simply opening up the market is all that is needed to accomplish all three. It’s not complicated: Those thirsting for 24 tins of watery stuff on the cheap go to Costco; those who want beer tastings with experts and an exotic selection go to a boutique store; and everything in between. Stores stock what they can sell; government collects taxes from all of them. This is how retail works in the non-communist world.

But not, alas, in Canada. And for reasons unknown, Clark’s committee only studied Canadian jurisdictions — concluding that “dismantling a quasi-monopoly system … provides for a small increase in convenience at either much higher prices for consumers and/or (sic) reduced revenues for government.” For example, they observe, a case of beer that costs $34-$35 in Ontario costs $40 in Alberta, where all liquor retail is privatized.

First: There has been no “small increase in convenience” in Alberta since privatization. In September 1993 there were 836 places to buy liquor. At year end 2013 there were 1,420. Second: Beer doesn’t have “a price” in Alberta, but if it’s “on average” 15% higher than in Ontario, that’s no mystery. The producers set the wholesale price; the government marks it up; and guess what? Though the gap has been eliminated, in the 15 years after privatization Alberta’s system was considerably more profitable than Ontario’s.

That’s not “because of privatization.” That’s because the government made a decision about how much it wanted to make off liquor — just like Ontario’s did. The Alberta example shows there’s no reason profits can’t be maintained or even boosted in a simpler, market-oriented system — but the architects of Ontario’s reforms never even gave it a chance.

Ontarians will thus be left with an even more absurd and needlessly complex system post-“reform” than before. A small dose of added convenience, and the hope beer in supermarkets might boost the long-term case for sanity, will have to pass for silver linings.

National Post

Mary Shelley's Frankenstein couldn't come up with a bigger monstrosity. In my opinion, the biggest problem Toronto has is that it's in Ontario.
 
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From this link:

Even after Supreme Court ruling, trade barriers still don’t make sense


The Supreme Court of Canada says the provinces have the legal right to restrict trade, but that doesn’t make it any smarter.

...the court ruled unanimously on Thursday that the provinces are well within their rights to enact laws that have the effect (if not the intent) of restricting trade. There is, it said, no “constitutional guarantee of free trade” within Canada.

The case at hand was, so to speak, small beer. Gérard Comeau of Tracadie, N.B., was appealing a $292 fine he received back in 2012 for the offence of bringing 14 cases of beer and three bottles of liquor home from Quebec....

For reference, from this link:

How much alcohol can I bring from another province?

Here are the allowed amounts of alcohol broken down by province or territory:

Ontario
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 24.6 litres of beer.
Quebec
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 24.6 litres of beer.
British Columbia
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 25.6 litres of beer.
Yukon
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 24.55 litres of beer.
Prince Edward Island
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 24.6 litres of beer.
Nova Scotia
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 24 litres of beer.
Saskatchewan
  • Up to three litres of spirits;
  • Up to nine litres of wine; and
  • 24 litres of beer.
New Brunswick
  • Up to one bottle of spirits;
  • Up to one bottle of wine; and
  • 12 pints of beer.
Newfoundland and Labrador
  • Up to 40 ounces or 1.14 litres of spirits;
  • Up to 40 ounces or 1.14 litres of wine; and
  • Two dozen bottles or cans or nine litres of beer.
Northwest Territories
  • Up to 1.14 litres of spirits;
  • Up to 1.5 litres of wine; and
  • Up to 8.52 litres of beer.
Nunavut
  • Up to 1.14 litres of spirits;
  • Up to 1.14 litres of wine; or
  • Up to 12 x 355 ml cans of beer.
Alberta
  • No limits imposed.
Manitoba
  • No limits imposed.
Keep in mind, the law is constantly changing, and the current trend leans towards removing restrictions.​
 
It’s remarkable that TSC routinely strikes down laws it doesn’t like, under an extraordinarily expansive living tree doctrine that the Charter means whatever they say it means, its actual words - ahem - notwithstanding. But allowing us plebs the economic freedom explicitly promised by law...that’s crazy talk, comrades.
 

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