unimaginative2
Senior Member
Interesting information about all the different schools in the Toronto public board.
http://www.nationalpost.com/documents/Enrolment0708.pdf
http://www.nationalpost.com/documents/Enrolment0708.pdf
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TDSB Schools Enrolment and Capacity
- Thread starter unimaginative2
- Start date
Observer Walt
Senior Member
Hmm ... interesting stuff, thanks for posting this, unimaginative.
I am a bit of a real estate nut and found this interesting, even based on just a quick skim. I have sometimes wondered what the "Bickford Centre" is, for instance. It faces Bloor Street, on the north edge of Bickford Park and right across from Christie Pits. According to this data, it sits on 10.7 acres of land in a pretty darn good location, and it accommodates a total of 131 students. How does this make any sense? Why not sell this thing??? It's in a great location, and it would bring millions.
Other examples probably abound. It seems that quite a number of schools are running at 60% of capacity or less. I'm not suggesting that all of them can be or should be sold, but I'm quite sure that some of them could be phased out.
We keep hearing that the Toronto School Board is short of money, but it seems they would prefer to sit on an empire of underutilized real estate. Where are their priorities? Shouldn't they be doing what makes the most sense for the kids (and for the taxpayers too)?
I am a bit of a real estate nut and found this interesting, even based on just a quick skim. I have sometimes wondered what the "Bickford Centre" is, for instance. It faces Bloor Street, on the north edge of Bickford Park and right across from Christie Pits. According to this data, it sits on 10.7 acres of land in a pretty darn good location, and it accommodates a total of 131 students. How does this make any sense? Why not sell this thing??? It's in a great location, and it would bring millions.
Other examples probably abound. It seems that quite a number of schools are running at 60% of capacity or less. I'm not suggesting that all of them can be or should be sold, but I'm quite sure that some of them could be phased out.
We keep hearing that the Toronto School Board is short of money, but it seems they would prefer to sit on an empire of underutilized real estate. Where are their priorities? Shouldn't they be doing what makes the most sense for the kids (and for the taxpayers too)?
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I'm glad you like it! I thought it was pretty cool, too. I've always been curious about enrollments, and it's great to have them all in one place. I never even thought about the real estate angle.
That is pretty glaring for sure, but I'm a bit curious about where the real estate sale money actually goes. That may be one reason for TDSB's lack of zeal in monetizing some of its real estate portfolio. I was involved in the campaign to save my old high school. It was a 150 year old building, perfectly located, packed with heritage, and operating at capacity. It was completely insane for them to want to close it, but basically some people wanted to get their pictures at a groundbreaking ceremony for a new high school (in a suburban industrial park across from farm fields) and were willing to shut down a thriving 150 year old institution to do it. Anyway, the trustees finally realized that this was not going to be to their political advantage, and they shelved the closure. However, the Education Minister, who just happened to be our MPP, came in and saved the day by allowing the board to keep the money from the sale of another closed school building and apply it to the construction of the new suburban high school. Apparently, until then the money from selling the real estate went right back to the province. I'm not sure if the exemption was one-time, or a permanent policy change. If not, then I guess TDSB wouldn't get anything from selling its real estate, so why bother?
That is pretty glaring for sure, but I'm a bit curious about where the real estate sale money actually goes. That may be one reason for TDSB's lack of zeal in monetizing some of its real estate portfolio. I was involved in the campaign to save my old high school. It was a 150 year old building, perfectly located, packed with heritage, and operating at capacity. It was completely insane for them to want to close it, but basically some people wanted to get their pictures at a groundbreaking ceremony for a new high school (in a suburban industrial park across from farm fields) and were willing to shut down a thriving 150 year old institution to do it. Anyway, the trustees finally realized that this was not going to be to their political advantage, and they shelved the closure. However, the Education Minister, who just happened to be our MPP, came in and saved the day by allowing the board to keep the money from the sale of another closed school building and apply it to the construction of the new suburban high school. Apparently, until then the money from selling the real estate went right back to the province. I'm not sure if the exemption was one-time, or a permanent policy change. If not, then I guess TDSB wouldn't get anything from selling its real estate, so why bother?
Prometheus The Supremo
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what is underused today could be at capacity in a few years. population shifts are tricky. proper analysis needs to be considered when making decisions on what to do with properties. what is an area of elderly people today could end up an area of families in a few years time.
BobBob
Senior Member
Might wanna be careful about closing schools and selling off real estate. Sure, the kids have all left some areas, and only empty nesters remain, but they will be replaced by new young people, and new baby booms will wash over these gentrifying areas. Won't be so easy to buy up real estate and build new schools after this happens, and certainly wouldn't make economic sense.
Perhaps some longer-term planning and analysis is called for here.
Edit: Prometheus beat me to the punch with the same point.
Great minds...
Perhaps some longer-term planning and analysis is called for here.
Edit: Prometheus beat me to the punch with the same point.
Great minds...
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
I've seen a similar list for the TCDSB, but I can't find it right now.
Once the school boards sell off land, it's gone forever. I believe that the schools which were pretty much guaranteed to be under-capacity for years or generations have already been closed/sold/leased to private schools, etc....this includes a few that were built in the 60s-80s period when schools were seriously overbuilt (a large number of low capacity schools). A small inventory of empty schools is also kept so that other schools being renovated/rebuilt have somewhere to hold classes for a year or two. The TCDSB at one point kept an entire vacant elementary school in Etobicoke full of old furniture that was being donated and shipped to Africa.
Once the school boards sell off land, it's gone forever. I believe that the schools which were pretty much guaranteed to be under-capacity for years or generations have already been closed/sold/leased to private schools, etc....this includes a few that were built in the 60s-80s period when schools were seriously overbuilt (a large number of low capacity schools). A small inventory of empty schools is also kept so that other schools being renovated/rebuilt have somewhere to hold classes for a year or two. The TCDSB at one point kept an entire vacant elementary school in Etobicoke full of old furniture that was being donated and shipped to Africa.
Prometheus The Supremo
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Might wanna be careful about closing schools and selling off real estate. Sure, the kids have all left some areas, and only empty nesters remain, but they will be replaced by new young people, and new baby booms will wash over these gentrifying areas. Won't be so easy to buy up real estate and build new schools after this happens, and certainly wouldn't make economic sense.
Perhaps some longer-term planning and analysis is called for here.
Edit: Prometheus beat me to the punch with the same point.
Lilibet
Active Member
I can't back up this theory with any hard numbers, but I wonder if under-enrollment in some schools is due to their lower EQAO stats.
The local elementary school in my neighbourhood is one slated for closure and has a pretty low EQAO rating and is running at only 60% capacity. This school has a high enrollment of kids whose first language is not English (I think it's supposed to have as many as 50 different languages as it's student base).
This can place these students at a disadvantage compared to those who do not face the same language barrier.
There are lots of children in this community, but I know parents who have chosen to place their children elsewhere because of the lower rating.
Just a thought.
The local elementary school in my neighbourhood is one slated for closure and has a pretty low EQAO rating and is running at only 60% capacity. This school has a high enrollment of kids whose first language is not English (I think it's supposed to have as many as 50 different languages as it's student base).
This can place these students at a disadvantage compared to those who do not face the same language barrier.
There are lots of children in this community, but I know parents who have chosen to place their children elsewhere because of the lower rating.
Just a thought.
TrickyRicky
Senior Member
Observer,
I've also wondered about the Bickford centre. I've always thought that they should sell the Bloor street side for redevelopment into mid-rise / mixed use buildings facing Christie-pits and use the proceeds to re-invest in the centre. As it stands that property provides an aweful deadening effect for pedestrian traffic and street vitality. To be fair to the centre however, it houses a small alternative school but one of its primary functions is it's ESL program which doesn't factor in to the student numbers. I'm in favour of selling off some property but it should also be mentioned that many of the school are used quite extensively for activities beyond what enrolment numbers would suggest. Everything from green space in underserviced areas, prayer spaces, community centres, ESL classrooms, recreation space for adult sport leagues etc.
I've also wondered about the Bickford centre. I've always thought that they should sell the Bloor street side for redevelopment into mid-rise / mixed use buildings facing Christie-pits and use the proceeds to re-invest in the centre. As it stands that property provides an aweful deadening effect for pedestrian traffic and street vitality. To be fair to the centre however, it houses a small alternative school but one of its primary functions is it's ESL program which doesn't factor in to the student numbers. I'm in favour of selling off some property but it should also be mentioned that many of the school are used quite extensively for activities beyond what enrolment numbers would suggest. Everything from green space in underserviced areas, prayer spaces, community centres, ESL classrooms, recreation space for adult sport leagues etc.
unimaginative2
Senior Member
I suppose they could look at a North Toronto CI style of redevelopment, including both a new school and condo towers. It seems particularly well-suited, since most of the people attending are adults who wouldn't cause noise complaints from the condo owners.
adma
Superstar
Given that Bickford straddles Garrison Creek, I wouldn't be surprised if the site gets Brown & Storeyed into parkland, instead...
Towered
Senior Member
Tell me about it - that place used to horrify me as a small child whenever we drove past it in my parents car. I thought it was a penitentiary! What I'd love to know is why so many schools built between the 50's and 70's are so ugly and ominous looking. I think the worst one of them all is Don Bosco on Islington, north of Dixon.
junctionist
Senior Member
I find that there are very few ugly schools. At worst, buildings like Don Bosco, are not satisfying from a pop architecture standpoint. They're not maintained well, and there's also little attention paid to landscape design. Many schools in Toronto have a attractive restrained Modernism, such as these:
(Click on the photos for more details.)
There's at least one high school with a Brutalist addition in the city, which also constitutes decent architecture no matter how ominous.
adma
Superstar
In and of itself, even Don Bosco isn't, or shouldn't, be that bad--it's 70s-style Brick Brutalism--but boy, what was the wisdom behind those X-braced underspaces in a neighbourhood marked by high-rise housing projects. (Okay, back in the day, they didn't know.)
Even Bickford Park isn't bad for what it is; all that 60s-modern glazed brick, and the sensation of walking through and underneath. In fact, if I'm inclined to pinpoint "ugly schools", it's more along the lines of the retrogressive hackwork that the Catholic school board tended to build through the 50s and 60s...
Even Bickford Park isn't bad for what it is; all that 60s-modern glazed brick, and the sensation of walking through and underneath. In fact, if I'm inclined to pinpoint "ugly schools", it's more along the lines of the retrogressive hackwork that the Catholic school board tended to build through the 50s and 60s...
Glen
Senior Member
Be careful in what you suggest that the TDSB does. It is not beyond them to sell an underutilized school, only to find that the incoming development necessitates have a school there.