Taxis and ride-sharing in Toronto

[TheTigerMaster]

As an investor I'm fascinating by the Uber model and find it academically interesting; however, from a social perspective you have to admit that (and I'm no anti-corporate advocate as a business owner and investor) that they are a fascinating breed of corporate evil. They are so good at what they do that they even leverage their costumer base as a political weapon. The average Joe on the street is actually attacking the cab monopoly and not Uber which fascinates me. I need to think about this more. I find parallels between the corporate strategy here and say the political strategy of Rob Ford or Donald Trump.

I am concerned about the spread of independent contractor style employment. Too many corporations are using this as a loophole to skirt minimum wage laws. This is screwing the middle class even more than we are now. And it's ultimately society that will have to pay for this corporate greed, through increased poverty, welfare, etc...

So with that in mind, I'd like to have the province implement employment laws that require employers who employ independent contractors over a certain amount of hours per month to hire them as full employees (including the benefits associated with that), or at the very least make them subject to minimum wage laws.

And before someone here says Uber drivers should just find a better job, but that's easier said than done. If these people could've found a better job already they would have. There's a reason our unemployment rate is sitting at 7% (too high).

Will this screw over Uber, the taxi business and a lot of other companies who skirt employment laws? Probably. But I'm not particularly sympathetic to them. We can't have employers using legal loopholes to abuse a vulnerable workforce. We implemented minimum wage laws for a reason (to protect the workforce from predatory corporations whose only goals are profit).

 

[LNahid2000]

Did a taxi run over your dog?

I don't get this kind of anger against cabbies. I personally don't want to support the ripoff plate owners. But I don't get the anger against these average hard-working cabbies.

No, but there have been many times I have been almost run over by a texting cabbie while cycling. I remember last summer one made a right turn into me without signalling and I narrowly escaped injury.

 

[gabe]

I am gravely concerned about the spread of independent contractor style employment. Too many corporations are using this as a loophole to skirt minimum wage laws. This is screwing the middle class even more than we are now. And it's ultimately society that will have to pay for this corporate greed, through increased poverty, welfare, etc...

So with that in mind, I'd like to have the province implement employment laws that require employers who employ independent contractors over a certain amount of hours per month to hire them as full employees (including the benefits associated with that), or at the very least make them subject to minimum wage laws.

And before someone here says Uber drivers should just find a better job, but that's easier said than done. If these people could've found a better job already they would have. There's a reason our unemployment rate is sitting at 7% (too high).

Will this screw over Uber, the taxi business and a lot of other companies who skirt employment laws? Probably. But I'm not particularly sympathetic to them. We can't have employers using legal loopholes to abuse a vulnerable workforce. We implemented minimum wage laws for a reason (to protect the workforce from predatory corporations whose only goals are profit).

Uber is cheap because it's slave labour once fuel, tax, car payments, insurance is taken out the driver is left with little.

 

[picard102]

But I don't get the anger against these average hard-working cabbies.

Probably because there are more people with negative experiences than positive. Ever had a driver ask if your girlfriend lives alone and if she's a good lay?

 

[nfitz]

I've never once had a bad cab experience in Toronto. It's all been very ... dull.

And never once have them drive an unreasonable route.

 

[Admiral Beez]

So with that in mind, I'd like to have the province implement employment laws that require employers who employ independent contractors over a certain amount of hours per month to hire them as full employees (including the benefits associated with that), or at the very least make them subject to minimum wage laws.

No thanks. I've had a private consulting business for years and for a while I had only one large client. Had the gov't forced this client to claim me as an employee I would have lost all my tax advantages. In fact, to avoid this very situation, I always made sure I had at least one or two other smaller (even tiny) clients so that CRA could not accuse me (and my large client) of skirting the tax laws and thus demanding that I become an employee of the client.

In short, I don't need gov't to protect me. I'll demand what I'm worth, and if I want more money I'll ensure my services, abilities and value-add results are of such a level that they demand high prices.

 

[nfitz]

Well, that might be true of a private consultant, but some employers are really abusing this, such as private schools declaring teachers independent contractors, or minimum wage earners, who have no ability to change their hours, or have other clients.

Your not the example of this being an abusive relationship. That doesn't mean that some employers aren't abusing this.

 

[Admiral Beez]

Your [sic] not the example of this being an abusive relationship. That doesn't mean that some employers aren't abusing this.

True, but your suggestion would be an example of best intentions causing unintended and negative consequences. I'd rather be left to fend on my own than ask the gov't to oversee how I exchange my labours for money.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

The usual definition? Not sure what you mean. Google "uber crowdsourcing". Uber is often used as an example.

Apologies -- I mistook crowdsourcing for crowdfunding. Your post makes complete sense, although I'd say that your view of the corporate world matches the cynicism of lots of others on this thread! Amazing how many people think that all corporations are evil (except, of course, Pepsico, because they make Cap'n Crunch, which is the best cereal ever.)

Uber has a special view of itself, and maybe one they need to have to break the taxi monopoly. But the 'you have nothing to lose but your chains' rhetoric (not from you, necessarily) about part-timers voluntarily signing up to be contractors and still somehow being oppressed is... weird.

 

[Riverdale Rink Rat]

Uber is cheap because it's slave labour once fuel, tax, car payments, insurance is taken out the driver is left with little.

WHAT??? Then why do they sign up for it? Why do taxi drivers complain THEY make no money? What's wrong with this industry in its current form that ZERO drivers (Uber / taxi / limo / rickshaw) make money, supposedly, and yet there are taxis everywhere, Uber is doing millions of rides in London (apparently) and limo drivers can afford those beautiful cars? How does that work?

I'm... skeptical of your statement.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

No thanks. I've had a private consulting business for years and for a while I had only one large client. Had the gov't forced this client to claim me as an employee I would have lost all my tax advantages. In fact, to avoid this very situation, I always made sure I had at least one or two other smaller (even tiny) clients so that CRA could not accuse me (and my large client) of skirting the tax laws and thus demanding that I become an employee of the client.

In short, I don't need gov't to protect me. I'll demand what I'm worth, and if I want more money I'll ensure my services, abilities and value-add results are of such a level that they demand high prices.

The exact implementation of the regulations would obviously need to be ironed out to avoid harming legitimate contracts, such as your self. But the fact of the matter is that a huge amount of employees are abusing this to get away with paying less than minimum wage. This needs to be stopped.

 

[pstogios]

I've never once had a bad cab experience in Toronto. It's all been very ... dull.

And never once have them drive an unreasonable route.

Well that settles it folks. There is no such thing as a bad cab experience in Toronto.

Not.

Cabbies have done all of these to me and/or my girlfriend, innumerable times, as passengers:
-refused rides
-taken circuitous routes
-refused to take specified routes
-been verbally abusive (of a sexual nature)
-driven unsafely such as over the speed limit
-not shown up after calling the main dispatch, or leaving without waiting even a minute for us to exit our condo

And then there are the times when I've had my own car and had to deal with cabbies cutting me off, driving erratically around me, or stopped right in front of me without signalling and pulling over to the right.

We aren't the only ones that has had these and other unpleasant experiences. That's why people hate cabbies.

They have many points of contention that the public sympathizes with and would support resolving, but until and unless they improve the passenger experience, they have lost the PR war in this city.

 

[nfitz]

Well that settles it folks. There is no such thing as a bad cab experience in Toronto.

I'm simply offering my own experience; I don't see any reason to be condescending. I don't take many rides - maybe 2-3 a year for the last 5 years. But at 0% problems in about 15 trips - compare to Columbus where I'm at 100% problems.

Not sure why some people have more frequent bad experience. Perhaps there are issues with the user as well?

I've no doubt there are some bad taxi drivers out there - and bad uber drivers too. But I don't think it's as bad as some people make out.

Am I the only who normally has no issues?

 

[pstogios]

I'm simply offering my own experience; I don't see any reason to be condescending. I don't take many rides - maybe 2-3 a year for the last 5 years. But at 0% problems - compare to Columbus where I'm at 100% problems.

Not sure why some people have more frequent bad experience. Perhaps there are issues with the user as well?

I've no doubt there are some bad taxi drivers out there - and bad uber drivers too. But I don't think it's as bad as some people make out.

If you don't take many rides then your experience doesn't add to the conversation.

We take many rides and yes it isn't 100% bad, but those bad experiences happen way too often. There is a reason why people in this city don't like cabbies and prefer Uber - they have similar experiences.

I know you don't like me (and I don't like you), so of course you would say perhaps the problem is the user -- unfortunately this too relies on little (zero) data (you have never met me).

 

[nfitz]

If you don't take many rides then your experience doesn't add to the conversation.

0 for 15 adds to the conversation. It suggests a problem with a driver isn't a normal situation - unlike some other cities I've taken cabs in.

We take many rides and yes it isn't 100% bad, but those bad experiences happen way too often. There is a reason why people in this city don't like cabbies and prefer Uber - they have similar experiences.

I've heard people complaining about uber drivers.

I know you don't like me (and I don't like you)

I have no idea what you are talking about. I don't know you - I certainly have no opinion on you whatsoever.

All I know about you, is all the mistaken claims about lack of new streetcars running - simply because you were misinterpreting the data. And your lack of understanding that Presto wasn't running fully yet. Just because of you were ignorant on those issues, is no reason I would dislike you - I'm somewhat insulated that you could think me so utterly shallow and devoid of any humanity to express a dislike about someone, simply based on a handful of interactions on a computer!

BTW, all 12 streetcars were in service both today and yesterday! With such excellent transit downtown, I'm surprised there's any need to frequently take taxis!