SWO HSR

[micheal_can]

To not clog up the ALTO thread, lets discuss the potential of an HSR route through SWO from Toronto to Windsor.
Does anyone have any links to studies for a route?
Would it suppliant an existing Via route?
Would it be a greenfield project?
What stops would it make?
With ALTO going forward, is an HSR to Windsor be considered fantasy, or just an unplanned future build?

 

[micheal_can]

https://www.ontario.ca/page/high-speed-rail

That is about the most official HSR report I can find.

 

[dowlingm]

In my view, if Wynne’s government didn’t do a solo run on SWO HSR, we could have had a federal-provincial agreement which delivered HFR and pre-empted Alto. Instead they competed directly with the VIA plan with a proposal with obvious flaws and then got themselves kicked out of office. I would hope that this thread will remain forever moot and that HF/SR in Southwestern Ontario will happen, if it does, with both level of governments properly cooperating and as part of a Corridor project, not a regional project.

 

[bearcat]

https://www.ontario.ca/page/high-speed-rail

That is about the most official HSR report I can find.

From your link: "2025 - High speed rail between Toronto and London projected to be complete."

I feel like that would have been overly ambitious.... but could you imagine having high speed rail to London this year!!! 1 hour 13 minutes to London.

 

[micheal_can]

From your link: "2025 - High speed rail between Toronto and London projected to be complete."

I feel like that would have been overly ambitious.... but could you imagine having high speed rail to London this year!!! 1 hour 13 minutes to London.

You mean not having to deal with the ever increasing traffic of the 401? That would be lovely.

What is bigger is that HSR to Montreal would be well underway as well.

 

[micheal_can]

In my view, if Wynne’s government didn’t do a solo run on SWO HSR, we could have had a federal-provincial agreement which delivered HFR and pre-empted Alto. Instead they competed directly with the VIA plan with a proposal with obvious flaws and then got themselves kicked out of office. I would hope that this thread will remain forever moot and that HF/SR in Southwestern Ontario will happen, if it does, with both level of governments properly cooperating and as part of a Corridor project, not a regional project.

My hope is that this thread morphs from a "wouldn't it be nice" to a "Here is something I saw on it" type of thread. The question is not will HSR in SWO happen, but when.will it happen. When I think of obvious places in Canada that by now should have real HSR London should be connected to Toronto with one. My challenge is that I feel Hamilton should also get it, but does that mean there should be 2 lines in SWO?

 

[ssiguy2]

Wynne's proposal was none of the sort. It was a political plow written on the back of a napkin during an election where she needed some SWO votes.

HSR to SWO makes perfect sense. They are the ideal distances for HSR and unlike Quebec, Windsor has 4 million people on the other side of the river while London is a major regional and academic centre. It should go via Aldershot and not KW. KW takes you to KW and nothing more. Aldershot allows for easy transfers to large Hamilton and Niagara which is very important as tourists will make up a substantial amount ridership. Aldershot is also far more direct from London than KW.

 

[Adjei]

Wynne's proposal was none of the sort. It was a political plow written on the back of a napkin during an election where she needed some SWO votes.

HSR to SWO makes perfect sense. They are the ideal distances for HSR and unlike Quebec, Windsor has 4 million people on the other side of the river while London is a major regional and academic centre. It should go via Aldershot and not KW. KW takes you to KW and nothing more. Aldershot allows for easy transfers to large Hamilton and Niagara which is very important as tourists will make up a substantial amount ridership. Aldershot is also far more direct from London than KW.

The original Wynne proposal has the line going through Pearson airport and on to Kitchener. Pearson needs to be connected to any future high speed rail line and it is easier to connect to Pearson if it goes through Kitchener. Also there should be a higher speed line which is not technically high speed which can go from Union to Niagara Fallas which is a big tourist draw and pass through Hamilton.

 

[micheal_can]

Wynne's proposal was none of the sort. It was a political plow written on the back of a napkin during an election where she needed some SWO votes.

HSR to SWO makes perfect sense. They are the ideal distances for HSR and unlike Quebec, Windsor has 4 million people on the other side of the river while London is a major regional and academic centre. It should go via Aldershot and not KW. KW takes you to KW and nothing more. Aldershot allows for easy transfers to large Hamilton and Niagara which is very important as tourists will make up a substantial amount ridership. Aldershot is also far more direct from London than KW.

The original Wynne proposal has the line going through Pearson airport and on to Kitchener. Pearson needs to be connected to any future high speed rail line and it is easier to connect to Pearson if it goes through Kitchener. Also there should be a higher speed line which is not technically high speed which can go from Union to Niagara Fallas which is a big tourist draw and pass through Hamilton.

Can we do both?Can we have a HSR towards KW and towards NF, and have one or both connect to London?
Along KW, Stratford might make a possible good stop.
Along NF, Hamilton and Brantford, as well as possibly Woodstock might also be good intermediate stops.

The challenge is how built up the Golden Horseshoe to London is, and continues to be. The other issue is with Pearson so close, having it served by the same trains may slow that down that it isn't very high of a speed.So, maybe the UP is replaced by a HSR that does not stop anywhere but Union and Pearson. Doing that, then it becomes would it be better to stop in KW or Hamilton?

 

[TransportEnthusiast]

- Building HSR to Windsor meets the "nation building project" criteria being touted by the federal government

- 1 hour and 15 minutes to Union would allow Londoners to commute to Downtown Toronto offices 2-3x a week. People already commute longer than this that live within the GTA. 2-3x a week from London would not be an arduous commute. This meets the governments goal for making it more affordable to live and work in Ontario. Moreover, GO should expand bus connections to Strathroy and Sarnia that connect to the HSR station in London.

- Aleve traffic off the 401.

- My last point which I am not sure about, building a connection to Detroit and maybe even Chicago. Detroit's decline has appeared to reverse, a connection would build some economic momentum.

 

[Adjei]

- Building HSR to Windsor meets the "nation building project" criteria being touted by the federal government

- 1 hour and 15 minutes to Union would allow Londoners to commute to Downtown Toronto offices 2-3x a week. People already commute longer than this that live within the GTA, 2-3x a week from London would not be a arduous commute. This meets the governments goal for making it more affordable to live and work in Ontario. Moreover, GO should expand bus connections to Strathroy and Sarnia that connect to the HSR station in London.

- Aleve traffic off the 401.

- My last point which I am not sure about, building a connection to Detroit and maybe even Chicago. Detroit's decline has appeared to reverse, a connection would build some economic momentum.

I found this map which shows potential connection to Detroit and Chicago and how long it could take to reach each city.

Michigan’s Future Rides on Great Trains

The Great Lakes State is ready to lead a rail revolution

www.hsrail.org

 

[micheal_can]

- 1 hour and 15 minutes to Union would allow Londoners to commute to Downtown Toronto offices 2-3x a week. People already commute longer than this that live within the GTA, 2-3x a week from London would not be a arduous commute. This meets the governments goal for making it more affordable to live and work in Ontario. Moreover, GO should expand bus connections to Strathroy and Sarnia that connect to the HSR station in London.

GO is a whole other mess.
They did not have a workable schedule for the train they introduced to London. They did not introduce any new GO bus service with it. Itis also too Toronto Union centric.

- Aleve traffic off the 401.

While I expect that traffic will never get better on the 401,giving us options is a great thing.

- My last point which I am not sure about, building a connection to Detroit and maybe even Chicago. Detroit's decline has appeared to reverse, a connection would build some economic momentum.

If they can position the Windsor station in such a way that an extension to the USA could be done,, that would be the prudent/future proofing thing to do.

 

[ssiguy2]

GO London was not a serious attempt at connecting Toronto to London. It was for political expediency only as the London Mayor at the time wanted to be able to do a ribbon cutting ceremony.

Who would take a 4 hour train trip on an uncomfortable commuter train when they could get there is half the time on VIA? The thing was so poorly thought out that the train left downtown London earlier than London transit actually started running. IOW, you had to have a car or take an expensive cab for the benefit of taking a 4 hour train trip. Small wonder it was a complete ridership flop. No one in London was stupid enough to take it.

 

[afransen]

- Building HSR to Windsor meets the "nation building project" criteria being touted by the federal government

- 1 hour and 15 minutes to Union would allow Londoners to commute to Downtown Toronto offices 2-3x a week. People already commute longer than this that live within the GTA. 2-3x a week from London would not be an arduous commute. This meets the governments goal for making it more affordable to live and work in Ontario. Moreover, GO should expand bus connections to Strathroy and Sarnia that connect to the HSR station in London.

- Aleve traffic off the 401.

- My last point which I am not sure about, building a connection to Detroit and maybe even Chicago. Detroit's decline has appeared to reverse, a connection would build some economic momentum.

I'm not sure encouraging super-commuting from London should be seen as the goal for a tens of billions of dollars rail project. Arguably, it is more valuable to connect the middling cities in Ontario with Toronto to enable quick business trips (and fast access to Pearson), not so much commuting. That is really more useful when there is better transit around the GTA, as well.

 

[micheal_can]

I'm not sure encouraging super-commuting from London should be seen as the goal for a tens of billions of dollars rail project. Arguably, it is more valuable to connect the middling cities in Ontario with Toronto to enable quick business trips (and fast access to Pearson), not so much commuting. That is really more useful when there is better transit around the GTA, as well.

With ALTO, Ottawa can effectively become a' 'bedroom community' of Toronto. In a way, that is a good solution. TBH, my hope is that connected to investment in HSR is also an investment in higher order local transit. So, before SWO HSR is built, those cities it stops in has higher order local rapid transit. I am fine if all it is is BRT.