Switzerland Minarets Laws

[wwwebster]

Interesting tidbit from the AP story at:

http://www.macleans.ca/article.jsp?content=w305965031
[excerpt]

"Voting figures showed a rural-urban split in the Swiss vote, with only 38.6 per cent of people in major cities backing the ban compared with about two-thirds of the population in smaller towns and villages, officials said."

I guess those least likely to encounter Muslims on a regular basis are those most likely to fear them.

 

[cacruden]

The one thing that I would like to see is the language which determines what shape is banned - my guess is that it is going to be difficult to single out the "shape" in all but name - so someone can just change the name

 

[newuser2k9]

About the racism of the law; yes, I do think it is racist mostly because of those who practice Islam in Europe. Very few (if any) white Europeans are Muslim, the Muslims are mostly recent North African or Arab immigrants. This law is denying them their basic rights by making it impossible to accommodate them as they essentially cannot have the call to prayer in new mosques. If there where actually white Swiss Muslims, this law would surely be different.

This has become a really big deal in Switzerland and the rest of Europe. I'm amazed at the lack of controversy over here.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

i was just thinking, are we any better than the swiss for making cannabis illegal here at home? we seem to have no problem denying the rastafarians their sacred plant. is canada racist for making pot illegal? are we living in a rastaphobic society?

 

[Second_in_pie]

I'm thinking it could be good for the Canadian Government to start jumping on Muslim immigration. With Europe and the US now pretty obviously opposed to Islam, Canada and Australia are basically the only "developed" places in the world where Muslims can feel at home. I mean, other than their home of course, but a majority of those places are unfortunately not doing so hot.

And also, I'm keeping my ears out for Americans to start going off on their rants about "How great it is to be a republic."
I mean c'mon! If we were in AMERICA, THE GREATEST NATION ON EARTH, our republican constitution would forbid people from actually voting their opinion. Of course, if we didn't, every single one of those filthy muslims would be deported straight back to Iraq where they belong crawling in nuclear waste. But we don't, so we just have to quietly and discreetly discriminate against them, so maybe they'll just leave on their own. God help the idiots that wind up with those guys.
/saracsm

 

[toraerach]

About the racism of the law; yes, I do think it is racist mostly because of those who practice Islam in Europe. Very few (if any) white Europeans are Muslim, the Muslims are mostly recent North African or Arab immigrants. This law is denying them their basic rights by making it impossible to accommodate them as they essentially cannot have the call to prayer in new mosques. If there where actually white Swiss Muslims, this law would surely be different.

This has become a really big deal in Switzerland and the rest of Europe. I'm amazed at the lack of controversy over here.

There are many white/European Muslims, especially in Southeast Europe (many Bosniaks, Albanians, etc.).

 

[kEiThZ]

About the racism of the law; yes, I do think it is racist mostly because of those who practice Islam in Europe. Very few (if any) white Europeans are Muslim, the Muslims are mostly recent North African or Arab immigrants. This law is denying them their basic rights by making it impossible to accommodate them as they essentially cannot have the call to prayer in new mosques. If there where actually white Swiss Muslims, this law would surely be different.

I agree its a dumb law and I don't quite understand how they'd enforce it but I have not seen anything that suggests this law would impinge on the basic rights of Muslims. Minarets are not essential at all to the function of a mosque. They are symbols. No different than the crucifix on top of churches. If a church can operate without a crucifix, a mosque can operate without a minaret.

Nor are minarets required for the call to prayer, they have speakers for that. The days when guys climbed the tower and shouted out are long gone. And the Adhan is usually restricted outside the Islamic world by local noise ordinances and such. When was the last time you heard a mosque in Toronto blaring out a call to prayer through a loud speaker like you do in the Middle East? I am fairly sure that would not go down well at 5am in the morning in most Toronto neighbourhoods. Would you suggest that not allowing the Adhan in Toronto is a violation of the rights of Muslims?

No question though that the Swiss are violating the architectural rights of Muslims. But it's over the top to suggest that Muslims are having their freedom of religion curtailed.

This has become a really big deal in Switzerland and the rest of Europe. I'm amazed at the lack of controversy over here.

It doesn't impact us and there are a lot bigger fish to fry than worrying about an idiotic law passed by ignorant voters of a tiny country half the world away.

And the reason its big in Europe is because they have a lot more Muslims than we do and they don't really have the best relationship with their Muslim population (discrimination on one side, terrorism on the other). We don't have quite the same history with Muslims in Canada.

i was just thinking, are we any better than the swiss for making cannabis illegal here at home? we seem to have no problem denying the rastafarians their sacred plant. is canada racist for making pot illegal? are we living in a rastaphobic society?

Now that was funny....and thought provoking?

 

[kEiThZ]

I'm thinking it could be good for the Canadian Government to start jumping on Muslim immigration.

How do you jump on "Muslim" immigration? Is that like getting on with "Hindu" immigration or "Catholic" immigration? Is it fair to discriminate on the basis of religion like that? So we'd give preference to a Muslim from a stable country (like Turkey) over another religious minority that could be threatened like a Jew or Christian from Iran?

I'd rather our immigration maintain its current stance, where religion and ethnicity are only issues if you are getting persecuted where you live. Muslims being discriminated against in Europe, hardly means that a Muslim immigrant from Indonesia should be given preference. Now if that European Muslim wants to apply, maybe he/she should be given special consideration.

With Europe and the US now pretty obviously opposed to Islam, Canada and Australia are basically the only "developed" places in the world where Muslims can feel at home. I mean, other than their home of course, but a majority of those places are unfortunately not doing so hot.

While there are issues of discrimination, I hardly think it's fair to say that Europe and the US are "opposed" to Islam. They are still taking in planefuls of Muslim immigrants. And they have Muslim majority countries (or having a very large minority) within Europe (Turkey, Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina).

 

[newuser2k9]

There are many white/European Muslims, especially in Southeast Europe (many Bosniaks, Albanians, etc.).

It is true that Albanians and other refugees from the Balkans to make up a portion of Muslim migration to Western and Central Europe. I wouldn't have considered Albanians white, and, even if they are, I'm fairly sure they suffer from racism from Western Europeans as much as North Africans and Arabs.

This law still seems to stem predominantly from the ultraconservative right's growing fears of these immigrants and their 'effects' on society. Maybe it is not specifically directed at one group, maybe it does stem from nationalism as well, but I do believe racism is going on here, whether hidden or public.

I agree its a dumb law and I don't quite understand how they'd enforce it but I have not seen anything that suggests this law would impinge on the basic rights of Muslims. Minarets are not essential at all to the function of a mosque. They are symbols. No different than the crucifix on top of churches. If a church can operate without a crucifix, a mosque can operate without a minaret.

Nor are minarets required for the call to prayer, they have speakers for that. The days when guys climbed the tower and shouted out are long gone. And the Adhan is usually restricted outside the Islamic world by local noise ordinances and such. When was the last time you heard a mosque in Toronto blaring out a call to prayer through a loud speaker like you do in the Middle East? I am fairly sure that would not go down well at 5am in the morning in most Toronto neighbourhoods. Would you suggest that not allowing the Adhan in Toronto is a violation of the rights of Muslims?

No question though that the Swiss are violating the architectural rights of Muslims. But it's over the top to suggest that Muslims are having their freedom of religion curtailed.

If a law were to be past limiting church spires and bell towers, I do think that would cross the line of freedom of religion. I'm sure one could find a valid legal case for it. They are being impeded in their practices, specifically how they build their houses of worship. While I'm sure it is possible to build a mosque with a minaret, by limiting the Muslim communities' presence in Switzerland you are also sending a very negative message. Even if minarets only serve as a symbolic marker of a local Muslim community, it is serious discrimination to not allow them that.

I do think that immigrants of Muslim faith in Canada do not face an entirely peachy life. That said, out of all the Western nations, I believe that we offer them the most protection. Although per capita the amount of Muslims is about 1/3rd of that of Europe, in a 2007 CBC survey* members of that faith were found to be the most satisfied with their country in the West. The only country that came close was Spain, of which Canada was ahead by 5%. Without the same ghettos and lack of integration that occurs in Europe, one has to conclude that we have been more accommodating over the years.

*http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/islam/muslim-survey.html

 

[Second_in_pie]

How do you jump on "Muslim" immigration? Is that like getting on with "Hindu" immigration or "Catholic" immigration? Is it fair to discriminate on the basis of religion like that? So we'd give preference to a Muslim from a stable country (like Turkey) over another religious minority that could be threatened like a Jew or Christian from Iran?

No, I'm just saying that we should open our immigration further to accommodate Muslims so they can have a more accepted life in Canada compared to Europe or the US. And I'd certainly say that Muslims fleeing persecution should be higher on the list than Muslims in stable countries who just want to go to a place with better business or a nicer climate or whatever.

While there are issues of discrimination, I hardly think it's fair to say that Europe and the US are "opposed" to Islam. They are still taking in planefuls of Muslim immigrants. And they have Muslim majority countries (or having a very large minority) within Europe (Turkey, Kosovo, Albania and Bosnia-Herzegovina).

I'd say there are more than just innocent little "issues with discrimination." There's full blown racism going on, and many places in Europe and the US are quite opposed too Muslim immigrants. They take them in first, to boost their population and economy, and also so they don't look racist at an international level.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

so are there any plans to ban moorish arches yet?

 

[kEiThZ]

No, I'm just saying that we should open our immigration further to accommodate Muslims so they can have a more accepted life in Canada compared to Europe or the US. And I'd certainly say that Muslims fleeing persecution should be higher on the list than Muslims in stable countries who just want to go to a place with better business or a nicer climate or whatever.

Do we have policies now that somehow prevent persecuted Muslims from seeking refuge in Canada? I am not quite sure what you are arguing for over here.

By and large there's probably more minorities fleeing discrimination in the Muslim world than there would be Muslims fleeing ill treatment in a Western country. Yet, our laws cover both groups adequately. So again, what are you proposing?

I'd say there are more than just innocent little "issues with discrimination." There's full blown racism going on, and many places in Europe and the US are quite opposed too Muslim immigrants. They take them in first, to boost their population and economy, and also so they don't look racist at an international level.

What do you call full-blown racism? I have yet to hear of an American town banning minarets. I think allegations like these are over-blown. Is there racism in the US and Europe? Of course. Are we talking systematic state planned discrimination? Definitely not in the US. Though it's arguable there's a shade of that in Europe. But even there, the French have resorted to cracking down on religions writ large: ie ban all religious symbols, not just burqas. Does that mean every religious person in France is being persecuted?

 

[kEiThZ]

I will suggest though, that the rise of Islamic extremism has at least some blame in this whole fiasco. It does not make the anti-Islam attitudes of the Swiss correct, but it could help explain where some of this comes from. The rise of the BNP and EDL in the UK is another indicator. I am sure at least some of that is a backlash from the UK being a victim of Islamist terror.

 

[kEiThZ]

That's falling back on stereotypes.

Really though?

You should have a chat with the embassy staff of the Danish embassy over the fallout from a few cartoons.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Danish_embassy_bombing_in_Islamabad

If I were the Swiss government, I'd be quite worried about Swiss assets being targeted after this incident.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I suppose the Swiss are watching their European brethren suffer with Muslim integration.

There is no Muslim integration in Europe. The Turkish guest workers that help rebuild Germany after the war have assimilated well, but they were mostly secular.