Switzerland Minarets Laws

[toraerach]

lesouris please read all my comments. I said earlier that in the Swiss context it didn't make sense because Swiss Muslims are moderates. My later comments were about Europe in general. A ban on Minarets is still idiotic and impractical, whatever the concerns.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I still think you're overblowing the influence of Al-Qaeda/Taliban types in Europe. The article Casaguy posted above shows us that only a very small minority of Muslims in Europe support violenct acts - on par with the non-Muslim population. This is a problem provoked by the far-right in Europe.

This anxiety towards the Muslim population isn't really because Muslims are a certain way or are violent or whatever. It's because Europe has changed dramatically over the past twenty or so years. The iron cutrain is gone, national borders don't mean what they used to, and yes, immigration has increased. Muslims are just a visible symbol of the changing times - and that's why these groups attack Muslim symbols: the minaret, the hijab, etc. These symbols are attacked because they're visible to everyday Europeans in a way that the fall of Communism and the Lisbon Treaty just aren't.

Notice how these groups aren't just going after Muslims. In much of Europe it's Roma, or blacks, or Jews, etc.

Buildings are a municipal jurisdiction. They are not a religious jurisdiction.

If you were to remove every church, synagogue, and mosque from a country, would religion cease to exist? NO. Therefore, the rights of an individual under their Freedom of Religion should not be extended to a structure.

Banning the minaret is not an attack on religious rights per se. It is an attack on freedom of expression that targets one religious group.

It is also hypocritcal for those individuals who will freely deny basic human rights to others within their own country but then demand more rights for themselves in their adopted country or country of convenience.

I don't even know where to start with this. I guess we can start with the fact that most of the Muslims in Switzerland are from the Balkans/Turkey. You wouldn't be hardpressed to find a church in Bosnia or Albania, and Turkey is fairly tolerant towards its religious minorities (at least nowadays).

Look at the demographics of Muslim immigrant communities in the West. Often you'll find a large percentage of Muslims who are or have been pretty oppressed in their countries of origin. Ahmadiyas from Pakistan, Indian Muslims from Uganda, Kurds from Turkey, refugees from the Yugoslav wars, etc. These people aren't the decision makers in Saudi Arabia and we shouldn't paint them all with the same brush.

 

[kEiThZ]

The standards are different.

Why?

And this differing standard is excatly what's exacerbating tensions. And I predict this is going to get worse. You can't ask one group of people to be completely accommodating while making no demands of the other.

In the case of Switzerland and Europe, we should be asking what it is that made Swiss voters so uneasy about their Muslim neighbours. Ditto for the rest of Europe (because let's face it they aren't all that far behind). Simply chastising them for voting one way or wishing them economic harm (like some here) will simply breed resentment while shutting down discussion.

Then, they won't discuss their concerns, they'll simply start voting for racist initiatives (like this Swiss ban on Minarets) or racist politicians (BNP).

 

[Second_in_pie]

If you want your answer, Keithz, it's because Switzerland is seen as a modern, developed country. It is a double standard, but do we really expect places like Saudi Arabia, Iran, Syria or Jordan to be set on the same level as Switzerland? It may actually take you a second because the answer's so obvious; of course not!

And the problem is that if Switzerland, one of the most developed, liberal and democratic nations on earth, is going around actively discriminating against a certain ethnic group, what does that tell people who already discriminate? If a developed nation is doing it, why can't we? It begins to set a very poor world standard.

It could even lead to escalation. Muslims get discriminated against in Europe, and so Muslims retaliate in other parts of the world. Perhaps a few extremists will even commit more acts of terrorism. This strengthens western resolve against Muslims, and so Muslims get discriminated against more, maybe with western extremist actions against Muslims. If other countries follow suit of becoming more lax about human rights like this, that very thing could happen.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

This is the big tragedy of Islamic fundamentalism, it's destroying the reputation of Islam.

fundamentalism: a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles.


islamic fundamentalism, just like christian fundamentalism is the true form of those religions. fundamentalists follow the scriptures exactly how they are, even though those scriptures can sometimes conflict with each other. this brings up a good question; how do you follow something that tells you to do a thing and not to do the same thing?

but islamic fundamentalism is not the whole story. i think an islamic fundamentalist would be one that follows the koran 100%. then you can have fundamentalists that follow a movement 100%, or both. and when i mean follow, i mean their goal, not the actual accomplishment rate.

 

[Admiral Beez]

islamic fundamentalism, just like christian fundamentalism is the true form of those religions.

Yes, but so far in the 21st century how many large terrorist attacks against "infidels" have there been by fundamentalist christians? Meanwhile, we've got Islamic terrorists attacking and murdering in New York, London, Spain, Bali, Mumbai, Texas, etc.

We need to understand that Islam is a completely different animal from other religions like Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, etc.

 

[AGTO]

Yes, but so far in the 21st century how many large terrorist attacks against "infidels" have there been by fundamentalist christians?

US Christian bombs Oklahoma city building,
IRA terrorises London for decades (supported by americans),
US christians terrorise the mid east, various pacific Islands and South American countries.
...just off the top of my head

We need to understand that Islam is a completely different animal from other religions like Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, etc.

No, I think you need to understand that the differences, if there are any, are not that great.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

Yes, but so far in the 21st century how many large terrorist attacks against "infidels" have there been by fundamentalist christians? Meanwhile, we've got Islamic terrorists attacking and murdering in New York, London, Spain, Mumbai, etc.

We need to understand that Islam is a completely different animal from other religions like Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, etc.

well, if we're to look only at the 21st century. if we're to look at america, islamic fundamentalism is usually a direct physical threat while christian fundamentalism (the bible thumping kind) is usually a threat to education, public policy, etc.

we're screwed. because moderates exist, how do you discredit the fundamentalist without insulting & alienating the moderate? fundamentalists push me to retaliate with logic and rationality but at the same time, i feel bad for tearing into beliefs that moderates hold dear. we're in a complicated mess.

 

[casaguy]

If the Swiss want to ban Islamic symbols, I see no more issue with that than if they banned Scientologists, or Mormans, etc.

The Swiss have right to Switzerland because they're Swiss. It's their country. They built it. It not a local culture, it's the country's culture.

Exactly. Well put. The people voted. Done.

The Swiss "image" would be more tarnished (like Canada's) if they acted as a doormat and bent over backwards for everyone.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Yes, but so far in the 21st century how many large terrorist attacks against "infidels" have there been by fundamentalist christians? Meanwhile, we've got Islamic terrorists attacking and murdering in New York, London, Spain, Mumbai, etc.

We need to understand that Islam is a completely different animal from other religions like Judaism, Christianity, Budhism, etc.

Ok, imagine if Christianity was the main religion in the Middle East. Do you think that suddenly all these problems with terrorism, insurgency and poor treatment of people would suddenly go away? The region's the region, and the politics aren't defined by a religion. Religion's just the reason these crazies give for doing their crazy things.

The IRA is a terrorist organization, and Ireland is predominately Catholic. Is Catholic immediately evil? If the IRA was trying to protect Irish values, including Catholicism, are they any different from the Taliban or Al Quaida? I'd assume that you'll say "yes," simply because they don't have dark skin, don't wear turbans and don't swear at you in Arabic.

The KKK. An obvious hate organization, proclaiming that their beliefs are set down by God and that they follow because God created the white race as supreme. So are they on the same level as the Taliban or Al Quaida? Do they wear turbans or speak Arabic?

The &#@*% Crusaders!!! They marched into the Holy Land, believing that they should murder Muslims and take over their land because Christianity, and Christians wanted the Holy Land for themselves. Is Europe this pot of evil you proclaim the Middle East to be?

I have a feeling you've fallen into believing the modern media idea of what the Middle East is popularized to be. Women forced to stay at home, angry Arabs constantly rushing around in jeeps to gun down the next horde of filth, perhaps people leading a train of camels to get to the next big city? The truth is that this image is totally not true, and it's the big thing that's causing people to have this almost hatred towards Muslims or Arabs.

EDIT: And how about the warlords in Africa that do much, much worse things than the leaders of Arab countries? The predominant religion of Sub-Saharan Africa is Christianity, but these people don't even do their work in the name of God. They're just greedy or evil people who profit from their country and use it to their own ends. But for some reason, the Arab world gets a much worse rap because they treat their citizens several times better, but are Muslim so it's all to hell?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

don't forget the witch hunts going on in evangelical christian africa.

 

[Admiral Beez]

US Christian bombs Oklahoma city building,
IRA terrorises London for decades (supported by americans),
US christians terrorise the mid east, various pacific Islands and South American countries.

Please re-read the original question. When exactly in the 21st Century did this occur? We can go back to the last Century, or even back to earlier Centuries if you like, but my point is, in the 21st Century only one religious-based terrorist group seems to be attacking targets across the globe.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

in the 21st Century only one religious-based terrorist group seems to be attacking targets across the globe.

islamic fundamentalist terrorists are well financed and supported by some governments and/or institutions. also, they're not necessarily stupid or poor.

 

[kEiThZ]

Citing the IRA is a useless comparison. The IRA was essentially an insurgent group akin to the Taliban. With the exception of the UK, the IRA was not out terrorizing citizens in other countries. Islamist radicals on the other hand are not fighting for a direct cause. They are essentially advocating the murder of innocents and justifying their actions by some vague notion of Western oppression (which did not significant credibility pre-9/11). If those blowing themselves up in the Tube were Iraqis or Afghanis it could be understood. But its Pakistanis and Arab immigrants blowing up Londoners. This is what ruins the image of Islam.

 

[kEiThZ]

islamic fundamentalist terrorists are well financed and supported by some governments and/or institutions. also, they're not necessarily stupid or poor.

How is that relevant though? Nobody said they were stupid or poor.

 

[kEiThZ]

Anyway, I don't think its concerns over terrorism that drove the Swiss to ban minarets. We have to wonder how muslims are integrating in Switzerland. Because if they were successful, we would not have seen this kind of vote.