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Star: Minding the gaps on The Better Way (Transit Camp)

"I saw posted invitations everywhere"

There were posters everywhere, huh? Everywhere between the Drake and the Gladstone? The first I heard of it was the article in this thread...but even if I wanted to go, I probably wouldn't since the round trip by TTC would take almost 3 hours.

It's this sentence in the article that may have bothered me the most:

"Webster, with an engineer's more linear way of thinking, said it took him a while to figure out what was going on among the clusters of creative people."

There's enough references to "subways and streetcars" to make me think the clusters of hipsters were trying to figure out what these things called "buses" were...the only thing they seem to "know" about them is that they apparently are so unreliable that we need next bus countdowns that can't possibly ever be accurate.
 
"I saw posted invitations everywhere"
And don't even get me started on *that*.

I think people who put up posters should be kneecapped. There, I said it.
 
I fail to see what the problem is with a bunch of transit geeks getting together (wherever that may be) and discussing transit issues (whatever they may be). How does this have any negative effect on anyone?
 
Wow, more anger. Where is that coming from though? I still don't understand how it aroses such contempt -- you're just seething with it, and I think it's betraying you. Do you just hate people who are involved in things, people that do things? I'm not trying to start a flame war here, but how can you have such anger about A: people you've never met B: people you characterize as some kind of downtown hipster crowd, which from going to this event i'd say is not an accurate description (and further, i'd say there is no such cohesive group that exists). Like, you called it a Spacing event. This was organized by people separate from Spacing, as I heard one of the organizers thank some blogs, including spacing, for advertising the event for them. I'm sure though you enjoy your vision of what these people are like though, so whatever evidence I can show won't matter.

Busses and streetcars> You're picking on it because they say busses and streetcars? There's a bus that runs NEXT TO the gladstone. I got on when it was done. I saw other campers on it too. There are busses all over downtown.

Can you order food at a community centre? I was there for 8 hours -- the Gladstone has a kitchen -- those services, and that it was FREE to rent out, seem ideal. Somehow that's part of some downtown conspiracy.

I've never been to one of these events, and I don't live downtown, but I think I fit in fine, nobody said my ideas were bad or hick or suburban. And of the limited # of people i met personally from the whole event, at least 4 were not from downtown.

I saw this event posted on at least 3 city blogs, and I thought that seemed nice, but was not going to go until that friend asked me to tag along. Of course, blogs are the domain of urban hipsters right?

There's a fairly strong ttc-thinking network online that's easy to access (i even found some threads on this board referencing some of it). Meet it half way....how much more open can open invitation be? It's not going to come posted to your doorstep.

It's interesting that you think there is some cohesive downtown group, with some kind of membership, or idea of self. Man, there is no such thing! There are dozens and hundreds of people and little groups doing things, and they're from all over but a lot of what they do happen downtown. I can come into downtown, go to any of these events, open a gladstone door, and i can choose to play, or i can stay home in don mills. How that inspires anger, i don't know. I could understand "i wish this could come out here" but anger and contempt?

So here's the thing....so why not start something like this in your neck of the woods if the lack of it generates such passionate anger in you? Organize the Scarborough chapter, or rexdale, or wherever you live -- get free space at the civic centre. It's easy. Invite line-men and bus drivers (they weren't excluded from the sunday event -- but the brass was invited because AS YOU KNOW they make the decisions). I'm certain the organizers of this event would love to talk to you about how to organize an event, or that they'd be open to suggestions of how to bring these events closer to non-downtown areas if possible.

But wait, you hate the very idea of this gathering, for so many reasons. So just take aim and fire, from your armchair. I'm sure these people will keep doing what they're doing, and you'll continue to imagine the imaginary world they live in.


Observer Walt> Hi, thanks for the welcome. Might stay, not sure yet (must get over myself first). Weird thread here, but certainly interesting.
 
Don't worry, Fiendish is Fiendish.

He's publicly stated his hatred of Tim Horton's, children, posters and all sorts of things. I think he advocates public executions for people who misbehave on the subway, litterers, postering people, parents who push their kids around in giant strollers, and so on.

He reminds me of this guy:

02.jpg


It sounds like you have a lot to contribute, so don't let Fiendish put you off.

I agree to an extent with what he says, that this "TTC Camp" was probably attended largely by a fairly exclusive group of downtown "artists", but that was the impression I got originally. But the TTC needs all the help it can get, so why not? There's other ways to do something too - make depuations at commission meetings. Email the commissioners - I actually got a personal reply from Rick Ducharme about an issue and it was actually addressed.

The things that the TTC will get out "artists" may include a better website and better marketing. Probably not the stuff that excites the average person in Malvern or Rexdale.
 
Re: Star: Minding the gaps

CliffordTO: Aw, stick around! Some of the discussions here are pretty good, and it sounds like you could give back as good as you get. :p

sp: What exactly is wrong with executions for the people with the giant strollers?
 
Re: Star: Minding the gaps

No one is against transit camp. However, I am skeptical that many of the people who attended probably see the TTC as more of a personal inner city art project than a functioning transportation system.

Do their solutions address peak hour capacity south of Bloor station? How about tunnel repairs? Putting 1500 buses on the road each morning?Making sure buses reach all 1000 square kms of service area? Oh, and what about budgeting? Labour relations? Politics?
 
I'd still like to see what other ideas emerged from the meeting...the article's author clearly only desired to tell us about ideas that demonstrated the perceived "engineers" vs "creatives" gap. If the TTC cares at all about the consultation process they should publish them.
 
Do you just hate people who are involved in things, people that do things? I'm not trying to start a flame war here,
I only hate people who seem to misinterpret criticism with hatred, as you've done. And your very first post took issue with what was said here, without really addressing most of the issues raised, so like it or not, you're in a flame war. Don't like it? Get the **** out.
I'm sure though you enjoy your vision of what these people are like though, so whatever evidence I can show won't matter.
I don't "enjoy" my vision. My vision, as you call it, is based on my experience reading stuff put out by these people, most of which borders on pie-in-sky. I know enough about this city and the TTC to know that these blab fests add nothing to the discussion as to the future of transit in this city. Reading what took place only confirms my view that those involved in this thing are attention-seeking dilettantes.
Can you order food at a community centre? I was there for 8 hours -- the Gladstone has a kitchen -- those services, and that it was FREE to rent out, seem ideal. Somehow that's part of some downtown conspiracy.
8 hours? Jesus, I've sat in on academic planning committees that were less obtuse. And not a conspiracy, unless the goal was to mooch off the place, in which case, you did something right. So I take it enthusiasm with transit planning is directly proportional with the amount of free food?
And of the limited # of people i met personally from the whole event, at least 4 were not from downtown.
Ok, great. Still doesn't address my issue: why always *meet* downtown? I'm sure there are other places where you can get free grub or something.
Of course, blogs are the domain of urban hipsters right?
If by hipsters you mean people who like the sound of their own voice, sure. Which is what I classify about 97% of blogs I've come across. Most of the TO ones are no exception.
There are dozens and hundreds of people and little groups doing things, and they're from all over but a lot of what they do happen downtown.
Why though? There *is* a larger city out there. Why should anyone take a group of people seriously who don't see this, or choose to ignore it? It's the height of arrogance. And by doing so, there is no way you can possibly discuss transit properly, which affects the entire city. Why should anyone take what you say seriously when you limit yourselves by geography to an absurd degree?
I can come into downtown, go to any of these events, open a gladstone door, and i can choose to play,
Funny you use the word play. Again, the sense I get from these groups is that they aren't really serious, and treat these issues as novelties or diversions. When I start seeing these groups meeting in Don Mills, or other places *outside* the core, I may take them seriously, but not before then. I can't help but think that when the next big "issue" arises, transit will soon be forgotten by these people. I don't see them sticking to it.
So here's the thing....so why not start something like this in your neck of the woods if the lack of it generates such passionate anger in you?
Oh I fight my own battles, thank you. My voluminous correspondence with local councillors, by-law offices, etc is a testament to that. I've put businesses I don't like out of business. I've shut down illegal rooming houses. Gotten people investigated, and in one instance, led to an arrest. So don't tell me I don't do what I can in my area. People here know I even pick up bags of litter on my daily walks in warmer weather. I just don't feel the need to announce it everywhere, like on a blog, thanks. I guess I'm of an older generation that doesn't feel the need to document each and every thought that comes into my head, and somehow make it seem as if it has any significance beyond that.
So just take aim and fire, from your armchair. I'm sure these people will keep doing what they're doing, and you'll continue to imagine the imaginary world they live in.
Well, most of their ideas are just that, imaginary. It's not me who lives in an imaginary world. I actually get things done rather than blab about them while hunched over laptops.
Might stay, not sure yet (must get over myself first).
Keep trying, you'll get there. Maybe.
 
sp> Thanks for letting me know about his caricature status around here. I'll leave it alone then.

chuck/scarborough> don't confuse that it was a fun event, and that there were some fun ideas, that people think the TTC is a fluff project. people take its role in the city very seriously. they ride it, and need it. and it goes without saying (though it was said at the camp) people want more service, more trains, streetcars, busses, the whole bit -- and there was talk of political will needed to push things to get them done.

of course there were more ideas put forth than could be summed up in that article -- though the ideas did weigh heavily on the "human side" of the TTC, which like it or not, is a massive part of the TTCs operation. nobody ever thought this camp could somehow "replace" the engineers and what not who keep the thing running now. however, at the next camp it would be great if some ttc engineers were in the mix, and see what they bring to an big open and creative session like this.
 
If I'm considered a caricature around here it's only because far too many forumers here feel safe labeling me as such and would rather take solace in their limp intellectual complacency rather than debate the (admittedly over-the-top) points I sometimes make. I see that tradition is safe in your hands Cliffie.
 
Art on streetcars...how imaginative! Next thing you know, they'll be talking about *crazy* things like smartcards and these "creative" people will drag the TTC into the 90s. Now, finding the TTC some new funding - that'd be creativity.
 
there is nothing wrong with Transit Camp except that it was run by private citizens. The TTC should be be doing the organising and there should be outreach sessions all over the city.
 
^ I'd say that's the crux of it, Spacing-specific criticism aside.

A self-selecting clique by definition can't welcome everyone no matter how much it claims the contrary.
 

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