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St Louis surpasses T.O. in rapid transit expansion

"I don't understand why all of today's rapid transit expansion is out to auto-dependent suburbs."

The inner-city areas generally already have the best tranist in most cities, Toronto included. Plus most of the population growth is in auto-dependent suburbs.
 
The inner-city areas generally already have the best tranist in most cities, Toronto included. Plus most of the population growth is in auto-dependent suburbs.

Auto dependent suburbs are also the most difficult to service. Low densities mean lower cost recovery levels. When you have transit systems that are currently stressed in terms of funding, it becomes a difficult question as whether to expand to newer suburban areas which could benefit from expansion while potentially putting greater strain on budgets with lines that may not be the most financially viable.

Basically it means going where transit is allready well established instead of entering into new markets. So until more people in auto dependant suburbia become vocal and demand better transit, or transit systems receive better funding and can take a few more financial risks, economics of the line in operational mode are going to be a major factor in where expansion lies.
 
Distance from downtown/central areas is a bigger issue than auto-dependency. Rosedale is an auto-dependent suburb but happens to be adjacent to downtown. Hogg's Hollow is identical to the Cachet area of Markham (except more hostile to pedestrians) but is a 2 minute walk from York Mills station. Southern Markham (the Denison area) is denser than Rosedale and easier to serve with buses. The problem is that it's so far from everything that travel patterns are wildly random and it won't matter how vocal they are (and paying double or GO fares to travel a shorter distance than those coming from Rexdale or the Port Union area counts in my books as vocal) or how much money is thrown at them. This is also why extending rapid transit to distant areas of Scarborough is silly when we can just have it run straight up to Thornhill. Also, suburban politicians outnumber inner urban ones and so can beg and complain louder.
 
"I don't understand why all of today's rapid transit expansion is out to auto-dependent suburbs."

The inner-city areas generally already have the best tranist in most cities, Toronto included. Plus most of the population growth is in auto-dependent suburbs.

But the auto-dependent suburbs have, um, autos. The inner-city areas don't have universal auto ownership. Since transit service is lower than it was last time ridership was this high, we need more transit in the city to get to places other than commuting to work from the suburbs.

St. Louis: I lived there for 7 years, from 92 to 99. When the metrolink opened, I rode it every weekday until I moved. There were parts of St. Louis I liked, but transit was not its highlight.

The funniest St. Louis story I can tell you is that they legalized riverboat gambling while I was there. But the riverboats by the arch couldn't attract suburbanites to them. I think it was in St. Charles that they came up with the great idea of building a pool and pumping river water into the pool. Then they built a barge on top of the pool and built a casino on top of the barge. To top it off, the building extended out from the barge so that you couldn't tell it wasn't a normal building. But it technically floated and there were only certain times you could "board" it since it legally had to "cruise" for at least a certain amount of time. This obviously wasn't what the state intended. I believe it went to the Missouri supreme court and the casino owners won. I'm not sure what the current status is.
 
I think that the suburbs are much more deserving of new transit funding than the inner city. I live downtown right now, and all I can say is boo hoo, sometimes I have to wait as much as a whopping 10 minutes for a streetcar. Boo hoo, sometimes I don't get a seat. Boo hoo, sometimes a traffic jam will increase my commute time to an ungodly 20 minutes. When I lived in the suburbs, I was dealing with buses that sometimes never came at all, didn't go where I needed them to, and sometimes sat in traffic for hours.

Providing better transit to the suburbs is THE ONLY way to decrease auto dependency in the GTA, because it's the only area that's currently auto dependant. Improving transit service downtown or in less outlying areas will result in virtually no new riders (and is therefore useless in reducing gridlock and smog) because most people there already use alternate ways of getting around.

But having said that, there are a few very important transit expansion plans in Toronto that must be prioritized, and these include St. Clair, DRL, and speeding up the King and Queen streetcars.
 
Providing better transit to the suburbs is THE ONLY way to decrease auto dependency in the GTA, because it's the only area that's currently auto dependant.

Its also a project that would be enourmously expensive to undertake. When you consider the work that would have to be to the main arteries of the system to be able to handle capacity (Lakeshore, Weston, perhaps a new subway line to supplement Yonge, the LRT network), plus increasing capacity on exisiting GO lines through additional tracks, and then, adding in additional lines to serve the suburbs, it adds up to an incredible undertaking.

Which is part of the problem. You can come up with quick, short term solutions, but at the rate region is growing, what works today is not going to work for very long.

Its not that Ontario and the GTA cant undertake a project of this size. Look at the 401 and the rest of the 400 series highways. Impressive, expensive, but the job did get done. At the momment though there just isnt the political will across the GTA to make the large scale investments needed. It will happen one day but sadly it may take another decade of suburban cities choking under their own excess before they join the calls for better transit.
 
The cost for new rapid transit lines in the suburbs is not any higher than in Toronto, that argument doesn't make much sense to me. Also keep in mind that the only two profitable bus routes in the GTA are in the 905. None of the TTC bus or streetcar routes are profitable. If cost was really the main issue here, then it seems to me that the next rapid transit lines should be built along Hurontario and Yonge, not Eglinton or Sheppard or Weston or anywhere else in Toronto.
 
The cost for new rapid transit lines in the suburbs is not any higher than in Toronto, that argument doesn't make much sense to me.

The cost per kilometer in terms of construction is probably not much different. The amount of revenue per kilometer that is generated is going to me much lower in the suburbs though when you are serving lower densities. And when you have to serve areas that may be 20 or 30 kilometers from the city center, and thus new lines that could easily be 20 kilometers before they feed into an existing line, cost recovery becomes a big issue to help recover the increased cost of serving suburbs that are farther and farther from the core.
 
I think that the suburbs are much more deserving of new transit funding than the inner city. I live downtown right now, and all I can say is boo hoo, sometimes I have to wait as much as a whopping 10 minutes for a streetcar. Boo hoo, sometimes I don't get a seat. Boo hoo, sometimes a traffic jam will increase my commute time to an ungodly 20 minutes. When I lived in the suburbs, I was dealing with buses that sometimes never came at all, didn't go where I needed them to, and sometimes sat in traffic for hours.

Yeah, me too. When I lived in the suburbs, the MT bus came by every hour. But you know what, when I got on it, I represented 50% of the people on board. And I needed to take 3 buses sometimes, 2.5 hours, to go somewhere that would take 20 mins directly by car. But people in general do not move out to the suburbs with taking innersuburb transit in mind. GO Train, yes, but the general expectation is to drive.

Downtown transit is still underserved, and could spur the most intesification development. Sure, its time MT gets something - but realistically, other than YRT recently with there plans, no suburbs have actively gun for it. What General Hazel really wants, she can get. Especially with Mississauga's financial ability (go into debt), they could easily have gotten the ball rolling, and worried about sr level contributions later. The fact that cityplace + the new fort york communities will have what, mixed traffic streetcar service only without any rapid transit screams out a lot more than the business parks and endless subdivsions (with some higher density along one major road) in Markham.
 
I represented 50% of the people on board. And I needed to take 3 buses sometimes, 2.5 hours, to go somewhere that would take 20 mins directly by car.

When I lived in Ottawa I ended up meeting quite a few who lived in the suburban wonderlands of Barrhaven and Kanata. Anytime I went to visit or go to a gathering out there you planned for it to take at least an hour an half. Usually 45 minutes for the first bus from downtown to the burbs, and another 45 (or more for feeder buses).

The worst were trying to get back to my apartment on a Sunday morning. Its hard enough to figure out your escape from the cul-de-sacs with a clear head, let alone hung over and filled with the fear you will no doubt be stuck next to the stinkiest guy on the bus that day.
 
Funny mental picture of Ottawa. I used to live out by Bayshore mall and work at Carling and Moodie at the big Bell Northern Research (Nortel) building there. I would either take the bus, but mostly ride my bike or walk. It was a pain getting downtown or to my softball games around Baseline and Marivale road. And going out to the market on a Friday or Saturday night - there was no way to get back home other than a very expensive cab ride.

Like many places, it was fine if you lived on the transitway, but otherwise was a long trip to get anywhere.
 
Rosedale is auto-dependent? I mean, maybe compared to St. James Town and other adjacent areas, but I would bet that for South Rosedale anyway (ie the part on the near sides of Mt. Pleasant and the main ravine) it has much, much higher transit use, particularly for commuting, than most areas with similar incomes.
 
^ And why is that? Because it's so close to downtown, the millionaires can take a 5 minute subway ride to their King & Bay jobs. The suburb is auto-dependent but not all of the residents are.

"But the auto-dependent suburbs have, um, autos. The inner-city areas don't have universal auto ownership."

Tons of suburban households have only 1 car for 3, 4, 5 people...that's not exactly universal auto ownership and it forces some people to embark on epic commutes every day.

"I think that the suburbs are much more deserving of new transit funding than the inner city."

Especially since 90% of people live in the suburbs. All day GO service everywhere, a DRL up to Don Mills & Finch, Sheppard over to Downsview, etc., would not only improve suburban trips for tons of people and get lots of cars off the road, it would help more people get downtown easily, which would then trigger inner city projects.

A Queen or King subway (or tunneled whatever) would be nice, but such a waste of money since most people only ride these streetcars for a couple blocks. Other than that, really, how many more projects in the inner city, aside from some streetcar projects, are needed?

"The amount of revenue per kilometer that is generated is going to me much lower in the suburbs though when you are serving lower densities."

Density doesn't matter when you rely on a vast network of feeder bus routes. If we're limited to building new rapid transit only where densities are high enough to support it without getting there by local buses, we're screwed - even the Yonge line would be deserted without the buses. Yes, it costs a lot to run the buses, but tons of people use the buses to get everywhere else in the city so it's not like they're not needed. The main reason transit routes downtown are so crowded (and thus generate revenue) is because they're full of suburbanites and they're slowed down by suburban cars on the road.

"The fact that cityplace + the new fort york communities will have what, mixed traffic streetcar service only without any rapid transit screams out a lot more than the business parks and endless subdivsions (with some higher density along one major road) in Markham."

What kind of rapid transit do you propose for CityPlace? It's already a 10 minute walk from the subway. When they build the DRL, there'll be a stop at Spadina & Front. And no one is proposing rapid transit for Markham right now. Viva is nothing more than two express bus routes.
 
We're looking at upwards of 10,000 new people in the West Donlands. 10-15,000 or more at City Place and the old Molson location. Many additional 1000's at King and Liberty and upwards of 100,000 in the Portlands. How will the existing streetcars and the Yonge/University line handle all this additional demand?

A subway or some higher order transit will most certainly be needed somewhere between Queen and the lake in the coming decades.
 
Yeah, a DRL :) Really, the city should take out a loan for a few billion and build it today. It relieves Yonge/Bloor, it serves downtown Don Mills (the city's 3rd skyline), it gets tons of people downtown faster, it relieves the E/W streetcar routes, it serves the waterfront area, etc.
 

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