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St Louis surpasses T.O. in rapid transit expansion

M

miketoronto

Guest
St Louis is putting the finnishing touches on its cross county METROLINK extension.

For anyone who does not know, St Louis has built a LRT system that runs on total seperated rights of ways. Its basically an aboveground subway network with LRT trains instead of third rail power trains. Anyway with the Cross County Extension, St Louis has now surpassed Toronto in the length of its rapid transit network.

I want you guys to look at this, because what St Louis has done, we could basically do along all the GO TRANSIT corridors within Toronto. St Louis doing a rapid transit system this way, has been able to build a large amount of train lines in a short period of time.

Such a network in Toronto could do wonders.

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I don't understand why all of today's rapid transit expansion is out to auto-dependent suburbs. Ditto for Toronto. Will an Eglinton or Queen subway never see the light of day?

The only exception to this wasteful rule is Los Angeles. In that city, they're building a Metro network with a downtown hub. They're putting up bus ROW along major intown routes and following up with major LRT and subway expansion. It's like they're resurrecting the old Pacific Electric route.

You guys are going to think I'm crazy, but in many ways, LA is the most progressive transit city in North America right now.
 
Okay. I'll bite. How is this surpassing Toronto?


St Louis is putting the finnishing touches on its cross county METROLINK extension.

Damn those Finns.
 
Its surpassing Toronto, because right now St Louis now has more KM of rapid transit lines then Toronto. And all done in a shorter amount of time.

If Toronto used this lower cost option of turning railway rows into rapid transit, we could provide much more rapid transit then we have, at a fraction the cost of subways, and also with faster service.

Also the reason we gotta expand transit to the suburbs, is because thats where the ridership growth is. People in the inner core already take transit. Its the suburbs where we gotta get the choice riders.
 
Well it looks like a fairly extensive network, and in terms of recent effort at least it looks like it would "surpass" what Toronto has done within the last few years. Toronto's total network would probably surpass this, but our total network has been built over a period of more than 50 years. What are we doing lately?

LRT or streetcar-type vehicles on a dedicated right of way is the way to go for a big chunk of our transit needs. Subways are horrifically expensive, and I don't think Toronto has had the best record in recent years at putting subways where they are most needed. Why not something that looks like this, along major arteries extending well out into the burbs? I don't know what this would cost but it has to be a fraction of a subway line.
 
If you look at the system, the part east of East St. Louis (a great little town!) goes through farm fields. It is more like a modern interurban in Illinois.

From world.nycsubway.org (a great resource for pics and overviews of rail transit systems)

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Critical question: esp. out of the core, how does ridership compare to GO?
 
Critical question: esp. out of the core, how does ridership compare to GO?

Nevermind GO, St Louis METRO has less ridership than even Mississauga Transit, even though it is the only transit
system for the area of 3 million people. METRO only has 151,000 boardings per weekday, compared to 185,000 for GO
and 157,000 for MT.
 
Whilst stranded up in Markham waiting for a GO bus during the TTC strike last week, I was actually talking to a woman from St. Louis about Metrolink. She said it was great, she was happy with it. She hadn't yet had an opportunity to ride any of our subways or trains, so neither of us was able to properly compare the two systems through descriptions, but she was satisfied with its service, coverage, etc. She was pretty baffled by YRT, GO, and TTC all overlapping/competing...I guess their transit delivery is not so fragmented down there (and since Metrolink goes to Illinois, maybe so). It may reach into farmland on the Illinois side, but on the Missouri side it does not - it sticks to inner suburban areas and doesn't come close to serving contemporary sprawl (1/4 acre lots, office parks, etc), basically the equivalent of staying in the 416. I suspect the Illinois stretch is purely political and an attempt to stop the area's decline.

Here's what the neighbourhoods the Cross County Extension runs through look like:
maps.google.com/maps?f=q&...3&t=k&om=1

Anyone else loving that amphitheat...er, wheelchair ramp?
 
^ I certainly am. Apparently elevator technology has yet to reach the midwest.

Whatever the St. Louis system's merits, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that it includes a station named "Skinker."
 
T.O and other Canadian cities would have better transit systems if the governments step up to the plate more often.

In USA, transit grabs tons of money from the government, they obviosuly understand transit issues down there. Also, transit is much cheaper down there interms of fares, well in most places (LA as an example).
 
You guys are going to think I'm crazy, but in many ways, LA is the most progressive transit city in North America right now.

That is not crazy at all. Los Angeles is a rather interesting which sadly I dont know nearly enough about.

Good for St. Louis for building this line, but if the point of this thread is to make Toronto feel bad for its current transit planning, there are far better examples than this one. Most European city would do the trick nicely.

That being said, I dont find Toronto's transit situation to be in a particularly terrible position. The problem with the GTA is that any solutions that are going to be required to build a better transit system (GO expansion, logical subway expansion, work to the Lakeshore and Weston lines, even streetcar lines) are going to require a massive investment in capital to do them right. And you can peddle ad hoc, temporary solutions but without the investment in the backbone portions of the network, its just buying a year or two before those solutions become limited.

Toronto also has one thing that most North American cities cannnot claim and this is a growing and established market in high density residential construction. Not just downtown where the past decade has brought about some hugely positive benefits, but also in the suburbs with high density nodes springing up. Yes these places will all need some sort of transit in the future, but its far easier to service these kinds of areas which have critical numbers to meet ridership targets, and, provide alternatives to transit and cars such as walking, biking, etc which are efficient, healthy, and cheap forms of transportation.

Im not crazy about just building a number of LRT or commuter rail lines into the suburbs as most suburbs stand. You can spend billions creating a new network, but if it the lines are just heading to car parks, green fields and low density residential pods, how are these lines ever going to recover their costs at even a moderate level?

In short, why subsidize stupidity? If you are more progressive suburb like Mississauga who has come to realization that most post 1950's suburban forms are unsustainable, and are making genuine attempts to develop and redevelop your city in a more sustainable, less car dependant manner, and want help from the province and federal government to build transit or other projects that will help meet these goals, great! Im all for that. But if your a suburb such as Vaughan which is by and large a sprawling wasteland in its most offensive forms who wants a subway line built out to a big empty field? A polite answer to them should be "go away".

Toronto may be a little slow in adressing transit needs for the city as it is today. But thats not entirely bad and to be somewhat expected. Planning transit for a region that can vary in size and scope from 3 - 8 million is not easy. And when the region keeps growing, it makes it even more difficult. Transit will begin to greatly improve in the near future but until it does, why worry (unless you happen to be a professional or student who works in that field, in which case, worrying is why you are there in the first place)?
 
"Good for St. Louis for building this line, but if the point of this thread is to make Toronto feel bad for its current transit planning, there are far better examples than this one. Most European city would do the trick nicely."
"Im not crazy about just building a number of LRT or commuter rail lines into the suburbs as most suburbs stand. You can spend billions creating a new network, but if it the lines are just heading to car parks, green fields and low density residential pods, how are these lines ever going to recover their costs at even a moderate level?"

Sorry, but it seems you're basing this solely on spmarshall's comment about Metrolink going out to cornfields in Illinois. The actual extension miketoronto told us about (the green line on the first map...the map is somewhat misleading as it only shows highways for reference) connects downtown with:
- a massive urban park (containing a zoo, etc.)
- a university
- St. Louis County's civic area (similar to NYCC)
- a big mall
- and then south to the area I linked to in my first post, where it connects with bus routes. Other radial and crosstown LRT lines have been proposed and will be built if/when central St. Louis fully rebounds. I'm not extremely familiar with St. Louis' layout, but this extension does actually seem analagous to an Eglinton line or a completed Sheppard line, not a transit line to nowhere like the Vaughan subway extension.
 
Transit isn't a short term race to see who can build more. So St Louis has built more in the last few years. Over the past 50 or 100 years who has been the clear leader?

And I'd say we will be back it in a major way soon. We're growing so much faster than them that its inevitable. And not just in the burbs. The Portlands, West Donlands, East Bayfront, King Liberty, City Place etc etc will together put major strains on the King and Queen streetcar lines leading to something being done downtown.
 
Sorry, but it seems you're basing this solely on spmarshall's comment about Metrolink going out to cornfields in Illinois.

Actually I wasn't bashing the system itself. Im sure its a lovely little transit system and seems rather similair to the O-Train network that Ottawa will soon be building.

What I was being critical of is how this is relevant to Toronto. The needs of a city like Toronto are not even close to the needs of a city like St. Louis in terms of what infrastructure is needed to effectively move people around. If you are going to compare transit systems and attempt to derive new ideas for Toronto, why not look at city like Los Angeles or examples from Europe. Places that are going to be more relevant to Toronto's exisiting needs.

Where a system like this would make sense and would be worth looking at for ideas are cities such as Mississauga, some of the other 905 suburbs, and Kitchener-Waterloo comes to mind as being a perfect place for something like a Metrolink inspired system. Even then, I would tend to advocate that any commuter or light rail within 100km of Toronto be based on a S-Bahn type system rather than continuing to segregate sytems.

Maybe I just havent joined the vanguard in transit planning by looking to cities of the future such as Phoenix and St. Louis.
 

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