taal
Senior Member
Did the flatiron building sell for the same price it did 13+ years ago?
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St Lawrence Market
- Thread starter dt_toronto_geek
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mburrrrr
Senior Member
“$200,000 more than the $15.2-million that the previous owner paid for the building in 2011.”
Toronto’s historic Flatiron building sells for $15.4-million
Lack of price appreciation a symptom of the malaise that has hit office markets since employees switched to remote work during the pandemic
www.theglobeandmail.com
taal
Senior Member
Paywall unfortunately, but I can extrapolate the details from the snippet above. I'm still a little surprised - clearly it's a non development site so that's a factor but it's such a prime and iconic location. Maybe if the building needs a lot of maintenance though that could explain it.
DSC
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The inside is surprisingly 'boring' - it was clearly gutted at some time so few if any historic features remain and the parts of the inside I saw about 5 years ago were certainly not Class A space - an iconic exterior but .....
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christiesplits
Senior Member
Interesting article on the challenges that butchers and grocers are facing as St. Lawrence Market's customer-base moves away from locals and towards tourists.
www.thestar.com
There are similar issues in markets in Europe, where social media foodies and influencers are turning once diverse markets into Insta-bait food courts. See Barcelona's famous market:
https://roadsandkingdoms.com/2018/the-battle-for-the-boqueria/
Longtime St. Lawrence Market shops are closing. Vendors fear its future is at risk. Are tourists to blame?
Vendors say extended hours have attracted more tourists — but tourists tend to watch the action rather than loading up on meat, fish and produce. "This is a market, not
www.thestar.com
There are similar issues in markets in Europe, where social media foodies and influencers are turning once diverse markets into Insta-bait food courts. See Barcelona's famous market:
https://roadsandkingdoms.com/2018/the-battle-for-the-boqueria/
Richard White
Senior Member
Interesting article on the challenges that butchers and grocers are facing as St. Lawrence Market's customer-base moves away from locals and towards tourists.
Longtime St. Lawrence Market shops are closing. Vendors fear its future is at risk. Are tourists to blame?
Vendors say extended hours have attracted more tourists — but tourists tend to watch the action rather than loading up on meat, fish and produce. "This is a market, not
There are similar issues in markets in Europe, where social media foodies and influencers are turning once diverse markets into Insta-bait food courts. See Barcelona's famous market:
https://roadsandkingdoms.com/2018/the-battle-for-the-boqueria/
Budapest has this issue.
Their Grand Market Hall used to be one of the main places where locals got their meat and produce. Now it is advertised in every guidebook and tourist website.
It is flooded with tourists on the regular and has moved from a proper market to a glorified tourist trap. The locals avoid it like the plague but tourists love it for the pictures and overpriced souvenirs.
I was there in June and the vendors cater to the tourists in order to survive. The entire upper level of the market is all overpriced souvenirs for the tourists while down below there are vendors every few feet hanging paprika from their shops for the tourists.
St Lawrence has definitely changed though. In the early 2000s as the article says you could get your meat, vegetables and so forth but when I was there a couple weeks ago it was more tourists than locals.
Much like in Budapest, the market is on every tourist website and in every guidebook. It is also highlighted on every tour.
It also does not help that there is a culture shift. Millennials don't cook as much as Boomers or Generation X does, Gen Z barely cooks in favor of food delivery apps.
Honestly, with less people cooking the market needs to change its mindset and cater a bit to the tourists if it wants to survive. The days of a parent being home to cook every night are slipping away and now it is becoming about convenience.
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CityPainter
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My wife and I have visited probably dozens of markets around Europe, particularly in Spain, Portugal and Greece. There's definitely a wide range. Some are clear tourist traps, usually architecturally pretty but essentially now just souvenir shops, with few locals shopping and English signage on everything. I think they are about as exciting as an airport terminal duty free shop. Outside the tourist core there are sometimes other markets that are a bit scruffier and geared towards locals. If I feel out of place and I don't recognize many things on sale it's a much more interesting experience, though I realize I'm the tourist probably ruining the place. I try to be discreet in my photo taking but I don't fool anyone. And it's true, when we're on vacation we don't buy a lot of raw meat or fish... it doesn't make any sense to do so. At most we might eat lunch at a stall, or buy a jar of supposedly-local honey or olive oil to bring home for the friend who waters our plants.
But I'm not convinced that this is the particular fate of the St. Lawrence Market, or that the extended hours are the culprit. Many vendors have fought the hour changes tooth-and-nail. Now they are blaming the extended hours for the place being busier which seems a bit... strange. Shouldn't longer hours spread out the foot traffic, not concentrate it? The busiest times remain the same. We've lived nearby for over 20 years and Saturdays have always been a no-go for us due to the crowds of slow-walking gawkers that make serious shopping impossible. If we do need something there on a Saturday we plan our entry and exit with military precision to minimize the distance we need to fight through the crowds. When they opened Sundays, I found the crowds busy, but less insane than Saturdays. The hour extensions later into the evenings really favour locals more: it's not tourists showing up at 6pm, it's locals on their way home from work. If anything we go more often. Friday evenings are the best time to go, it's quiet and they're fully stocked for the weekend.
We were regulars at Whitehouse. They had very good quality meat. But honestly, I didn't love shopping there. The service could be friendly but more often was gruff. I was lectured for not standing in the "right spot" a few times. The display cases were really high, cutting across at my eye level and making it hard to converse with the sellers. And, frankly, it was very expensive, even for basic ingredients (we definitely weren't buying kangaroo meat.) La Boucherie has always been our fallback, now we just go there more often. There are also lot of other butchers in the market, all with pretty much interchangeable products, and it's hard to imagine that they don't simply steal business from each other.
Most of the market has changed surprisingly little over the past two decades. Stack'd is the really only new major vendor I can recall in years. The new flower shop by the main entrance looks nice. The market installed slightly better seating after the pandemic, but it's not exactly been transformed into Eataly. The lower floor still maintains the prison-like vibe of its former use, despite years of talk about refurbishments. There's the exact same mix of veggie and takeout places, all of which have always been busy. Rube died but his rice shop has remained essentially frozen in time. Everything remains conspicuously European-centric, aside from the Chinese-Canadian takeout, a perfunctory sushi roll spot, and a single "Mexican" place with very pricey specialty products. If you ask about cuts of meat needed for an interesting Asian or Mexican recipe you saw on America's Test Kitchen the butchers will look at you blankly.
If anything's changing for the worse, I don't think the hours are to blame. It's outside forces. Work-from home probably hurt them, with fewer well-paid office workers theoretically stopping by on the way home from the finance district, though as a previous poster said, fewer people cook elaborate meals at home every day than they did a few decades ago.
People with money to spend now have many more quality food options, with Whole Foods and Farm Boys and similar supermarkets a short distance away downtown, as well as in every suburb. In the city there are options like Eataly and McEwan's. Even Union Station is becoming a competitor to the St. Lawrence Market now, with lots of upscale food vendors. And I notice that these are much more diverse and representative of modern Toronto, selling trendy Japanese and Korean foods and imported products.
For those with less money to spend, food prices are a big problem for many people right now. Aside from some of the veggie sellers, most food at the market is priced far above what you can get at Metro or No Frills, both within walking distance. A shop called "Lively Life" on the lower floor sells canned products for $6 that you can buy at Metro, across the street, for $2.49. I don't think price-conscious shoppers see the market as a place for them.
There's also the perpetual complaint about parking, and even if this is more about perception than reality, it probably hurts. There hasn't been a big lot next to the market since the 1980s redevelopment of the neighborhood, but many of the smaller pay lots in surrounding streets have steadily vanished due to condo development. There's still a big garage at the south end of Church St, but many people don't know about it. In general, the gridlock around Front and Jarvis makes getting through that area by car a nightmare, so I don't imagine it makes many want to stop and linger. Being a pedestrian is only marginally better. These are challenges that extend beyond the market, but they no doubt affect it.
I don't know what the solution is -- the market needs to change an adapt, but I'd hate to see it become a tourist food court. On the other hand, stubbornly catering to the outdated living, eating and shopping habits of 1982 is not a road to success either.
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DSC
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This is an excellent post. (Or, to put it another way, I agree with it!) Though I understand that the updated hours are a problem for family-run places, the purpose of a retail establishment is to serve customers and most customers are FAR better served now than in the past. Like @CityPainter we seldom have shopped there on Saturdays for ages as the crowds are 'in the way' and the merchants are too busy to chat, weekday shopping is far more 'social'. The City has plans to 'fix up' the lower level but these seem to be on hold - partly due to the covid delays that affected all such projects but they do need to get on with it and open up the west side to Market Street to take advantage of it now (supposedly) being a pedestrian street all year. We buy 99% of our vegetables at the Markets (regular and Farmers) as the quality is SO much better and the prices the same or, often, lower than No Frills and Metro. We used to buy most of our bread there too but the Bimbo purchase of Stonemill did not help their quality or value or increase the range of breads available - which actually declined. (It is actually odd that a large multi-national was able to keep on having a - large - stall there at all.)
Of course, things change but in the ca 25 years we have been going there there are certainly some improvements and some losses but c'est la vie! Overall it is still a GREAT place, even if definitely not one of the top Markets in the world!
Northern Light
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Rather than hit reply and draw down a lot of text, I will tag @CityPainter, @christiesplits and @DSC as I share my thoughts.
1) I think the St. Lawrence is indeed one of the world's great markets; not without its failings, and not in every way, but its a really well balanced offer of food and related product.
2) I'm marginally sympathetically to the small family business complaints, but truthfully, I don't think the owner or head baker/butcher etc. needs to be there every day, and the sales one can pull in should offset some additional staff. When the market data shows sales up ~ 20% from pre-pandemic levels that's a big upward move, if Whitehouse picked up none of that, it would mean some other vendors saw a spike of over 30%. If your neighbour is getting a 30% sales lift, and you're getting zero, maybe you're doing something wrong.
3) Things do change, of course, though I'm not sure simply saying 'its generational' works. Indeed many people are in very small apartments/condos with a lack of cooking and storage space affecting how they cook and what they buy. Add to that, that the era of widespread housewives is past, and there is going to be added time pressure on people cooking at home, especially on weeknights. Likewise, sure, there are fewer folks coming in from the distant burbs; some of that is the same issue as the city, some is increased traffic, more expensive parking, and better food options close to home...........but...
What I see is simply that that means you need to change what/how you sell in order to draw. That doesn't mean becoming a 'food court' nor does it mean lots of souvenir sales.....
So what does it mean? I'll come back to that, but first let me offer why I come down to the market.
a) Kozlik's, even as they've become much more available in grocery stores throughout the City (they're on the regular shelves in Metro, Longos and Farm Boy); they still have far more category depth at the original SLM location.
Where else do I get to try over 30 different kinds of mustard?
b) The honey vendor in the basement........... again, so many different types, and the ability to sample.
c) Rubes Rice...........the Iranian Smoked Rice is an amazing product, love it!
d) Above average seasonal veg.
e) De Liso's for having some of the best Wagyu/Kobe in the City (steep price, but a nice treat)
***
So back to what draws someone to buy food in the market who isn't an immediate local (I come in from the east end of Danforth area).
- Unique products unavailable elsewhere
- Category depth
- Ability to sample
- Interaction w/the vendors (I'm looking for..... and often if they don't have it, they'll bring it in for me)
- Ability to customize (notable for butcher's doing custom cuts/sizes); same for some cheese vendors.
****
Thoughts on Sausage King: Not very good, less selection that the typical Farm Boy, lack of samples, lack of good product explainers (don't just tell me its Vietnamese Sausage, tell me about the flavour profile, how its used, what it goes with, sell me on it!)
Thoughts on WhiteHouse: Never once was an explainer on what Kangaroo or Ostrich taste like, nor how to cook them, nor what to pair them with, and don't recall ever seeing them sampled. There ya go. I tried'em anyway, I rather liked Ostrich, but I'm always up for a food adventure, the middling customer needs a bit more enticing.
Thoughts on where the market should go......
I think the manager was on point..........greater diversity of vendors, a Caribbean focused butcher or green grocer could do well. As an example carrying more goat, and Oxtail etc. I think an east Asian Vendor selling the whole chicken nose to tail and selling the blue chicken, among other things.. An indigenous vendor, focusing on game meats or seasonal, sustainably foraged produce. (Fiddleheads, Wild Mushrooms, Paw Paws, Wild Blueberries, Birch Syrup, Wild Rice etc.)
The bakeries, I think, could use a wholesale change-out. Lets start with just a really great baguette. But also, how about a range of bread products better appealing to different cuisines.
There's a need to push vendors on samples again, I realize this went away during the pandemic, but it needs to come back in spades; there's also a need for better customer education, not only on the virtue and use and taste of different products, but on the how-to (cook, store, prepare etc.)
I think vendors also should have permission to carry a limited number of complimentary products. For Butchers, that could mean dry rubs, marinades and demi-glace. For fishmongers, oyster knives, filleting knives, and you get a free how-to demo with the sale, so you don't lop off any of your own extremities. For produce vendors, herb butter for that corn on the cob, a spiralizer for the zucchini, store-made herbed oils infused w/the same herbs sold in store.
Also, for people unfamiliar w/how the butchers used to work and still do for wholesale, more explaining on buying large portions, showing the price advantage, the way to portion/store, and considering offering full prep for $$
There is a need for some additional sit-down space, at least quasi-climate controlled, in the winter. This could be done along Market street, just by having openable/closeable glass doors/windows and a couple of heat lamps. (as opposed to booting out existing businesses to find room.
I must admit, I 'd be inclined to get rid of the couple food court-like vendors in the basement, apologies to the owners, but I don't get the value-added to their being there.
1) I think the St. Lawrence is indeed one of the world's great markets; not without its failings, and not in every way, but its a really well balanced offer of food and related product.
2) I'm marginally sympathetically to the small family business complaints, but truthfully, I don't think the owner or head baker/butcher etc. needs to be there every day, and the sales one can pull in should offset some additional staff. When the market data shows sales up ~ 20% from pre-pandemic levels that's a big upward move, if Whitehouse picked up none of that, it would mean some other vendors saw a spike of over 30%. If your neighbour is getting a 30% sales lift, and you're getting zero, maybe you're doing something wrong.
3) Things do change, of course, though I'm not sure simply saying 'its generational' works. Indeed many people are in very small apartments/condos with a lack of cooking and storage space affecting how they cook and what they buy. Add to that, that the era of widespread housewives is past, and there is going to be added time pressure on people cooking at home, especially on weeknights. Likewise, sure, there are fewer folks coming in from the distant burbs; some of that is the same issue as the city, some is increased traffic, more expensive parking, and better food options close to home...........but...
What I see is simply that that means you need to change what/how you sell in order to draw. That doesn't mean becoming a 'food court' nor does it mean lots of souvenir sales.....
So what does it mean? I'll come back to that, but first let me offer why I come down to the market.
a) Kozlik's, even as they've become much more available in grocery stores throughout the City (they're on the regular shelves in Metro, Longos and Farm Boy); they still have far more category depth at the original SLM location.
Where else do I get to try over 30 different kinds of mustard?
b) The honey vendor in the basement........... again, so many different types, and the ability to sample.
c) Rubes Rice...........the Iranian Smoked Rice is an amazing product, love it!
d) Above average seasonal veg.
e) De Liso's for having some of the best Wagyu/Kobe in the City (steep price, but a nice treat)
***
So back to what draws someone to buy food in the market who isn't an immediate local (I come in from the east end of Danforth area).
- Unique products unavailable elsewhere
- Category depth
- Ability to sample
- Interaction w/the vendors (I'm looking for..... and often if they don't have it, they'll bring it in for me)
- Ability to customize (notable for butcher's doing custom cuts/sizes); same for some cheese vendors.
****
Thoughts on Sausage King: Not very good, less selection that the typical Farm Boy, lack of samples, lack of good product explainers (don't just tell me its Vietnamese Sausage, tell me about the flavour profile, how its used, what it goes with, sell me on it!)
Thoughts on WhiteHouse: Never once was an explainer on what Kangaroo or Ostrich taste like, nor how to cook them, nor what to pair them with, and don't recall ever seeing them sampled. There ya go. I tried'em anyway, I rather liked Ostrich, but I'm always up for a food adventure, the middling customer needs a bit more enticing.
Thoughts on where the market should go......
I think the manager was on point..........greater diversity of vendors, a Caribbean focused butcher or green grocer could do well. As an example carrying more goat, and Oxtail etc. I think an east Asian Vendor selling the whole chicken nose to tail and selling the blue chicken, among other things.. An indigenous vendor, focusing on game meats or seasonal, sustainably foraged produce. (Fiddleheads, Wild Mushrooms, Paw Paws, Wild Blueberries, Birch Syrup, Wild Rice etc.)
The bakeries, I think, could use a wholesale change-out. Lets start with just a really great baguette. But also, how about a range of bread products better appealing to different cuisines.
There's a need to push vendors on samples again, I realize this went away during the pandemic, but it needs to come back in spades; there's also a need for better customer education, not only on the virtue and use and taste of different products, but on the how-to (cook, store, prepare etc.)
I think vendors also should have permission to carry a limited number of complimentary products. For Butchers, that could mean dry rubs, marinades and demi-glace. For fishmongers, oyster knives, filleting knives, and you get a free how-to demo with the sale, so you don't lop off any of your own extremities. For produce vendors, herb butter for that corn on the cob, a spiralizer for the zucchini, store-made herbed oils infused w/the same herbs sold in store.
Also, for people unfamiliar w/how the butchers used to work and still do for wholesale, more explaining on buying large portions, showing the price advantage, the way to portion/store, and considering offering full prep for $$
There is a need for some additional sit-down space, at least quasi-climate controlled, in the winter. This could be done along Market street, just by having openable/closeable glass doors/windows and a couple of heat lamps. (as opposed to booting out existing businesses to find room.
I must admit, I 'd be inclined to get rid of the couple food court-like vendors in the basement, apologies to the owners, but I don't get the value-added to their being there.
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evandyk
Senior Member
Good comments, most of which I agree with. I visit the market almost every week (I was there today, in fact, and annoyed with some tour group encircling the smoked salmon case I was trying to buy from - I should have gone on Sunday...). During the pandemic it was a main source of groceries for us, as their supply chains seemed to be a lot more reliable than the big stores.
For me its unique proposition is the range of groceries available under one roof, with different quality levels and price points. You can get basic supplies for similar prices to grocery stores, but the quality is usually better. And you can get really top end stuff. My favourite little treat is the chorizo iberico from Scheffler's.
St. Lawrence Market is the one thing I will really miss when I move out of this neighbourhood. I doubt I'll come down often from the west end (even though it's just a 10-15 minute walk from my office).
But I'd echo citypainter - what's actually surprising is how little the market has changed in the last 20+ years, and how great a job they're doing at keeping it a full-service food market.
Oh, and I wish Kozlik's would bring back their full sampling practices from 2019. The bacon frying and all the mustards open to taste.
For me its unique proposition is the range of groceries available under one roof, with different quality levels and price points. You can get basic supplies for similar prices to grocery stores, but the quality is usually better. And you can get really top end stuff. My favourite little treat is the chorizo iberico from Scheffler's.
St. Lawrence Market is the one thing I will really miss when I move out of this neighbourhood. I doubt I'll come down often from the west end (even though it's just a 10-15 minute walk from my office).
But I'd echo citypainter - what's actually surprising is how little the market has changed in the last 20+ years, and how great a job they're doing at keeping it a full-service food market.
Oh, and I wish Kozlik's would bring back their full sampling practices from 2019. The bacon frying and all the mustards open to taste.
hawc
Senior Member
evandyk
Senior Member
Even the courtyard in Time and Space looks good from that height!
Bayer
Senior Member
I make dinner practically every day, and I have lots of time since I work at home and get up at 5:30, but I'm at Bay and Bloor and I'm not going anywhere that isn't within walking distance, which extends to Harvest Wagon and Olliffe very occasionally. Many more unusual ingredients can be ordered online. And I still remember the wheel of cheese I bought at the Market for a New Year's Eve party. It reeked so much of ammonia, it was sickening.
mburrrrr
Senior Member
What’s the over/under for sidewalk cuts post project completion? Oh wait, this is the second cut. SW corner of Scott and Wellington was a few months ago.
Any guess as to what‘s planned For these two work areas?
1. North side of Wellington at Scott
2. Wellington St. north side around CRAIB at 42 Wellington St. E. Or Pravda 50 Wellingon St. E
Paint starts West of scott looking west on wellington.
Looking west on wellington at scott
Looking east on wellington east of scott.
Scott st looking north
Any guess as to what‘s planned For these two work areas?
1. North side of Wellington at Scott
2. Wellington St. north side around CRAIB at 42 Wellington St. E. Or Pravda 50 Wellingon St. E
Paint starts West of scott looking west on wellington.
Looking west on wellington at scott
Looking east on wellington east of scott.
Scott st looking north
DSC
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As we have discussed here before, the painting of utility locates does not mean that the sidewalk or road will be opened up. They often paint them to guide them as they pull cables through existing conduits that bend and branch. Not that I say there will be no excavation but it is not (yet) clear!