Snow removal comparison

[ZEBuilder]

The 402 is notorious for sometimes having particularly bad snow squalls off of Lake Huron. I believe it is not that uncommon for it to close during major weather events.
In fact, even some of the 401 was closed between Kitchener and London during the last messy winter storm, I think because of an accident but it was still closed for a few hours. So yes, 400 series highways do close, and as insertnamehere mentioned, it is a much bigger deal when they do.

That stretch of the 401 between London and Kitchener closes multiple times a winter, it's the stretch between Woodstock and Kitchener that has a tendency to be the problem. It does get hit with snow squalls but not as bad as the 402, more often than not it's a weather related accident that closes it but it has been closed due to road conditions before. This winter I can think of 3 days off thr top of my head, the first snow squall of the year for KW dumped 30+cm overnight, the last storm (March 13) had that stretch messed for multiple days, then in February it was closed after it became a skating rink, and there's definitely other times I'm missing but it does close a surprising amount.

 

[micheal_can]

That stretch of the 401 between London and Kitchener closes multiple times a winter, it's the stretch between Woodstock and Kitchener that has a tendency to be the problem. It does get hit with snow squalls but not as bad as the 402, more often than not it's a weather related accident that closes it but it has been closed due to road conditions before. This winter I can think of 3 days off thr top of my head, the first snow squall of the year for KW dumped 30+cm overnight, the last storm (March 13) had that stretch messed for multiple days, then in February it was closed after it became a skating rink, and there's definitely other times I'm missing but it does close a surprising amount.

Interestingly,I remember my late grandfather talking about stories about white knuckled driving between Toronto and London many times. I guess some things never change.

 

[lenaitch]

That is very correct. Part of the problem is The City of Greater Sudbury's snow plowing policy requires the snow to be on the ground before they do much. A full call out does not happen till 8cm has fallen. In normal circumstances, that is not an issue. In a storm like this, that is what fell every few hours. My hope is that some sort of public release of information on changes can be released.

That would be in the city's winter road maintenance standards. The MTO has the same standards manual for it's highways, with different standards applying to different highways/stretches of highway and other roads the MTO is responsible for. It used to apply to its own employees but now applies to its contractors. Change the standards and it probably changes the terms of the contracts. I'm not sure any jurisdiction attempts to maintain bare roads from the get-go. Waiting for a certain level of accumulation could take 10 hours or half an hour, depending on the storm.

As I understood it, it was an OPP cruiser in front. I think they did that in case there were issues they ran into along the way. Maybe it can be adopted for all road closures.

It was a plough followed by a police vehicle followed by the convoy. If any other police vehicles accompanied the convoy I didn't hear. A stated rule was no passing; although I don't know how that rule was disseminated to a few hundred vehicles (apparently some trucks no longer have radios and most passenger/small commercial vehicles don't). The goal was to try to prevent drivers from doing something stupid. One police vehicle in the front of several kilometers of vehicles isn't going to know if something happened, let alone do something about it. It was an attempt a 'controlled chaos'. Regardless, it worked. Whether it is suitable for other areas, who knows.

I remember decades ago that they seemed to use more sand than salt. Now, they seem to use more salt than sand. It feels like the goal is to melt the snow instead of make the snow have traction. Part of the problem is if you use the same wording, such as bare roadway across the province as the metric, like you said, that may be much easier in the south than the north. TBH, it is not about bare pavement. It is about it being safe to drive on at the speed limit. Up here, most of us have winter tires. Some of us even have studs. So, it is not that we do not expect bad roads, it just seems they seem to be worse every year. So, maybe it is not about being bare, but the number of passes an hour till it is bare. Many times, there is a center of lane berm that seems to just sit there, making it very unsafe for cars or no 4x4/AWD vehicles.

That's the exact opposite of my recollection, but who knows. Salt use has always been an environment problem that the MTO and MNR try to deal with.

The 'centre bare' condition is aided by abrasion; the centre of the roadway is worn by traffic in both directions. It used to be that sand/salt would be applied down the centre of the road where it is crowned so the brine and slush would migrate to the outer edges. No idea what they do now. The centre of a crowned road is less likely to have ice caused by water pooling.

 

[Jonathan's Junction]

That stretch of the 401 between London and Kitchener closes multiple times a winter, it's the stretch between Woodstock and Kitchener that has a tendency to be the problem. It does get hit with snow squalls but not as bad as the 402, more often than not it's a weather related accident that closes it but it has been closed due to road conditions before. This winter I can think of 3 days off thr top of my head, the first snow squall of the year for KW dumped 30+cm overnight, the last storm (March 13) had that stretch messed for multiple days, then in February it was closed after it became a skating rink, and there's definitely other times I'm missing but it does close a surprising amount.

It's fascinating how quickly the weather changes the more you go west of Toronto. KW can get extremely harsh weather and Toronto gets nothing, and vice versa. The snow squalls in general have been particularly bad this year though.

 

[micheal_can]

That would be in the city's winter road maintenance standards. The MTO has the same standards manual for it's highways, with different standards applying to different highways/stretches of highway and other roads the MTO is responsible for. It used to apply to its own employees but now applies to its contractors. Change the standards and it probably changes the terms of the contracts. I'm not sure any jurisdiction attempts to maintain bare roads from the get-go. Waiting for a certain level of accumulation could take 10 hours or half an hour, depending on the storm.

I know if the standard is changed costs likely will too. There was a video I posted about the tour of an MPP in Northern ON that stated that there were over 800 road closures in a year on 17 and 300 in that same year on 11. I wish the source was provided, cus I would like to know how many were weather related and weather related accidents. Plowing is only one aspect of keeping our highways open. One of the other ones is visibility. If we can focus on the road surface being as safe as reasonably possible, that would be a welcomed thing for many northerners. Just like I hope the city looks into its response to the storm and publicly releases that information, I hope the MTO does as well. My big hope is that the plow operators and contractors followed their contract, and it is that contract that needs to change if we want a better response.

That's the exact opposite of my recollection, but who knows. Salt use has always been an environment problem that the MTO and MNR try to deal with.

The 'centre bare' condition is aided by abrasion; the centre of the roadway is worn by traffic in both directions. It used to be that sand/salt would be applied down the centre of the road where it is crowned so the brine and slush would migrate to the outer edges. No idea what they do now. The centre of a crowned road is less likely to have ice caused by water pooling.

When I was a kid, I remember that there used to be dedicated "salt trucks"that did not have a large plow in front, but a smaller one under the truck. It has been decades since I have seen them. Maybe that hey piece of equipment is needed to cone back.

Another thing I have noticed is that the highway is not clear, they are throwing salt, but their plow is up. You talk of abrasion, and that plow blade being up is not helping anything.

 

[lenaitch]

When I was a kid, I remember that there used to be dedicated "salt trucks"that did not have a large plow in front, but a smaller one under the truck. It has been decades since I have seen them. Maybe that hey piece of equipment is needed to cone back.

Standard practice used to be that ploughs and salters were separate vehicles. They were operated at different speeds and different times. I don't recall MTO salter having a blade but they might have. Now they are mostly a single vehicle with blades, salt/sand boxes and brine tanks.

 

[micheal_can]

Standard practice used to be that ploughs and salters were separate vehicles. They were operated at different speeds and different times. I don't recall MTO salter having a blade but they might have. Now they are mostly a single vehicle with blades, salt/sand boxes and brine tanks.

Maybe it is changes like that that lead to the winter road conditions we are experiencing.

Products Trucks – Henke

henkemfg.com

They are called underbody scrapers. They are still available.

 

[lenaitch]

They are called underbody scrapers. They are still available.

Oh i know what they are; I just don't recall MTO sanders using them. The city of Barrie uses them.

Edit: It is very likely the MTO did not. Their sanders had mid-vehicle discharge so a an underbody blade would have interfered with distribution. I'm sure somebody has an old photo somewhere.

 

[micheal_can]

Oh i know what they are; I just don't recall MTO sanders using them. The city of Barrie uses them.

Edit: It is very likely the MTO did not. Their sanders had mid-vehicle discharge so a an underbody blade would have interfered with distribution. I'm sure somebody has an old photo somewhere.

It may have only been cities that had them.