Snow Dump Near Downsview Park

[activeday]

Hi Asterix -

Thanks for your ongoing comments and observations.

I think we would both agree the City of Toronto must review how these dumps are being handled and go back and ask the residents in the area for a "Check Up".

P.S. The dumps don't melt in the Spring - they are still there in August / September.

P.S. Sometimes the city does the right thing, sometimes it can make mistakes - we are ( all of us ) part of that city, so we need to part of the solution.

Again - I Sincerely Thank You

 

[Asterix]

I think we would both agree the City of Toronto must review how these dumps are being handled and go back and ask the residents in the area for a "Check Up".

They did review how the dumps are being handled. They hired an outside environmental engineering firm and they produced a detailed report. You cited it previously and may want to consider perusing its contents.

P.S. The dumps don't melt in the Spring - they are still there in August / September.

I somehow doubt that. The Downsview pile lasted into June last year - barely. I similarly remember the Pottery Rd pile lasting to the end of May/early June in 2004.

P.S. Sometimes the city does the right thing, sometimes it can make mistakes - we are ( all of us ) part of that city, so we need to part of the solution.

Solution to WHAT? The main problem is snow on city streets. Removal to those dump sites is the primary solution to that problem. That is not going to change unless you can come up with significantly more serious evidence of harm than you have so far.

If you read the report you cited, you'll see that the consulting company did not raise the spectre of problems that could not be addressed by management techniques at the sites rather than the complete elimination of the snow piles.

I know you'll probably interpret this as a personal attack, but you continue the same behaviour you've exhibited throughout the thread. You make claims about serious harm to the environment, to people and even planes. Posters have countered those claims with facts, logic and rationality, asking you for preferred alternatives.

You've still yet to suggest a single alternative to the current solution to the problem of snow accumulation on city streets while continuing to demand the dumps be closed.

It is very difficult to carry on a sensible discussion when you repeatedly avoid counterpoints and refuse to contribute anything of substance beyond more demands for 'something' to be done.

By all means, present your open-minded alternative solution to the city removing snow from city streets and dumping it in large piles out of the way. If you do that, then maybe there will the basis for continued discussion. Until then, this very much feels like I'm banging my head against a brick (and unresponsive) wall.

 

[activeday]

Hi Asterix -

Ironically, I find some of your comments are similar as to what happens in Toronto when someone raises a concern ( be it about Dumps, areas that house propane or any other areas that an individual has ).

What often happens in Toronto, when you raise a concern is this:

There is,

a/ A lot lot lot of writing about how wrong the person was for raising the concern.
Please refer to the last several posts.

b/ A demand that the person come up right away with a solution.
Please refer to the last several posts.

c/ An overall attempt to intimidate or silence the person by belittling them.
Please refer to the last several posts.

d/ A "gang mentality" that is propogated by one or two bullies.
Please refer to the last several posts.

e/ The "last straw" statement such as "I just cannot believe how un-enlightened you are to my way of thinking".
Please refer to the last several posts.

f/ Repeat to part "A"
Please refer to the last several posts.


Is this really how we want to solve problems in our neighborhoods?
Is this really a good model for communication?

I think we can all do better.

The city recently "banned" water bottles, but allowed the same bottled water to be sold as long as it was "flavoured".
Is it possible that the wisdom we now have trusted to lead us, has made a mistake, but on a larger scale, with these dumps?

Is it wrong that, based on the overall dysfunctions within Toronto, I question the actions of the city?

Let me answer this one - No, it is not wrong, in a democracy, it's a necessity.

 

[andomano]

Last year we had a massive propane explosion - let's stop waiting for something bad to happen before we act.

Really?

 

[digi]

Hey Activeday,

what solutions/ideas do you have to offer?

Apparently, you just like to complain and have others do the hard work...you've brought nothing to this debate. Set an example for the rest of us instead of whining that you're not getting your way.

 

[activeday]

Thanks for the reply back -

Please see my point "B" above:

b/ A demand that the person come up right away with a solution.
Please refer to the last several posts.

Please feel free to now go directly to step "C"
c/ An overall attempt to intimidate or silence the person by belittling them.
Please refer to the last several posts.

This type of methadology ( intimidation, belittling, sarcasm and bullying ) has been used in Toronto for the past few years - it's not working.

We need to intoduce a new way of thinking for Toronto - one that does not include bullying, sarcasm or fear of intimidation.

Let's work together ( not apart ).

 

[digi]

Let's work together

You're not willing to.

 

[andomano]

I feel like activeday has a slight case of agenda-ism.


Comparing the snow dumps to an accidental propane explosion that killed a person, is a bit like comparing apples to a propane explosion.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

if you remove the snow dump from the patch of land on downsview, there is still nothing being done for the entire GTA. if there is issue with the snow and its contents, it's like knowing all the cladding panels on a building are loose and could fall and hurt someone but only replacing 1 panel out of thousands with no plan for the others.


that 1 panel is the downsview snow dump and all the other panels represent the entire GTA.

 

[activeday]

if you remove the snow dump from the patch of land on downsview, there is still nothing being done for the entire GTA.

Gotcha and I honestly agree with that concern - when I first found out about the Downsview Dump I had no idea (honestly) about the scope or size of the other city locations ( I had been told about one other one near Christie Pitts ). When I saw the size of the one near Bayview I was amazed and very dissapointed that a city that considered itself so "green" could actually be doing this - even after the community had raised so many concerns.

And yes .... I also agree 100% .... my concern has an agenda, and I herby plead guilty to caring about my community and the city of Toronto - albeit a little too much sometimes

The corelation to the propane explosion is this: as a member of that community, I was not aware there was a propane storage facitlity there until my neighborhood exploded in flames one night. Most people were not aware it was even there - I promised myself that as a citizen in Toronto, from then on, if the political community were no longer appropriately advising people of possible concerns, I would do my part to at least raise a flag and to get involved.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Activeday. Comparing a snow dump to last years propane explosion is a horrible comparison. Nothing in that snow dump has to potential to cause the damage that the propane explosion caused. It's insulting to the people that were affected by the explosion to compare that to the potential (if any) damage caused by a snow dump.

I suggest you go over to the dump site and take some soil samples if you are so concerned about the contamination on that site. While I'm not advocating trespassing, I'm sure it isn't all to difficult to gain access and secure some samples. Come back and tell us just how contaminated the area is. Wait someone already posted a link to a city study that did just that, and the conclusion was that while it was not ideal there was no need to be concerned about excessive buildup of toxic chemicals.

I'd really like to hear what solution you would propose.

 

[Asterix]

Honestly, I think this persecution complex or belief in some kind of plot to keep you down is going excessively too far.

Ironically, I find some of your comments are similar as to what happens in Toronto when someone raises a concern ( be it about Dumps, areas that house propane or any other areas that an individual has ).

What often happens in Toronto, when you raise a concern is this:

There is,

a/ A lot lot lot of writing about how wrong the person was for raising the concern.
Please refer to the last several posts.

No, that is not an accurate characterization. You raised what you believed were legitimate concerns. Nothing wrong with that. Those concerns were addressed, yet you refused to acknowledge that and continued to harp about your original (now discredited) issue. That just makes one look close-minded.

b/ A demand that the person come up right away with a solution.
Please refer to the last several posts.

I wouldn't expect you to have the absolute final answer, but if you are going to demand 'no dumps', then it is really not helpful in the least if you don't present the slightest suggestion as to what to do about the snow in the streets.

c/ An overall attempt to intimidate or silence the person by belittling them.
Please refer to the last several posts.

I'm not trying to intimidate or silence you. I'm simply trying to get you to acknowledge that your concerns have been addressed, that in the grand scheme of things the snow dumps are the least harmful to both the environment and the general well-being of the city of Toronto. Your refusal to constructively contribute to the discussion is what is frustrating.

d/ A "gang mentality" that is propogated by one or two bullies.
Please refer to the last several posts.

If you read most of the posts by other users on this thread, you'll see that they answer your questions (only to have you raise the exact issues again) and ask you questions in return (only to have you completely ignore them). That is just not conducive to good communication.

e/ The "last straw" statement such as "I just cannot believe how un-enlightened you are to my way of thinking".
Please refer to the last several posts.

Again, please refer to all those posts asking you to contribute something, anything, to the discussion beyond continued claims of the snow being toxic waste and demands that the dumps be closed ASAP. How many times should people be expected to ask you to further the debate only to have you repeat the same tired lines ad-nauseum? At some point it does become the 'last straw' for other forum participants.

Is this really how we want to solve problems in our neighborhoods?
Is this really a good model for communication?

Once again, the real problem in our neighbourhoods is the accumulation of large quantities of snow during the winter. The best solution is to truck it away to centralized sites.

While there are some localized issues with those sites that should and can be relatively easily addressed, that solution certainly beats leaving the snow where it was on the street.

I think we can all do better.

Honestly, I don't think you do believe that. If you did, you would have contributed something of a suggestion at some point during this thread. You didn't and repeatedly demanded the dumps be closed. If you do think we can do better, please, tell us what the city can do better with the snow?

 

[activeday]

I'd really like to hear what solution you would propose.

Thanks for the reply back - you have kindly shown how quickly people can resort to the 2009 Toronto Service Methodology:

Please see my point "B" and "C" above:

b/ A demand that the person come up right away with a solution.
Ironically, you just did this.

c/ An overall attempt to intimidate or silence the person by belittling them.
Ironically, you just did this too.

If it makes it easier, I would not be offended if you skipped the part where one or two other people pitch in and cheer you on. At this point you can now go back to Step A:

"A lot lot lot of writing about how wrong the person was for raising the concern"
( Eeek - looks like Asterix just squeezed in ahead of you on that one )

These dumps are _not good_ . The effects on the environment ( land and water ) will be long lasting.

Please, let's get the word out about these dumps - it seems apparent that the City of Toronto will do it's best to diffuse debate on issues - I believe in the end though democracy will prevail.

P.S.

FYI: http://www.springerlink.com/content/0248175056646046/

".... Sodium, Cl and Pb contents of snow, meltwater and soil from ten Metropolitan Toronto snow dumps were determined. Contaminant concentrations were related to the source of the snow. Although initially very high, Na and Cl concentrations in the snow decreased with time while piled at the dump site. Conversely, Pb content increased with time as the snow gradually melted and the Pb-containing particulates accumulated on the snow surface .... Although some Na and Cl is leached from the soil during the summer months, much of the salt and most of the Pb remains to accumulate from year to year. Adjacent to the snowpiles, the soil contained contaminant concentrations that were higher than control samples, possibly as a result of the movement of meltwater runoff ..."

( But that's just The Ontario Department of Transmission Environment - how could they possibly know more than us, right? The more you dig into these dumps, the more you find .... )

 

[afransen]

So, the upshot is that sodium and lead concentrations were higher than control. It would be useful if those levels were specified, especially with regards to environmental standards.

 

[Asterix]

Thanks for the reply back - you have kindly shown how quickly people can resort to the 2009 Toronto Service Methodology:

As opposed to the 2009 Toronto Complaint Methodology whereby someone makes a complaint and then proceeds to not only fail to provide ANY kind of suggested alternative, but completely ignores logical and factual responses to the original complaint while repeating their same disproven mantra?

Go ahead and disprove that.

These dumps are _not good_ . The effects on the environment ( land and water ) will be long lasting.

Please, let's get the word out about these dumps - it seems apparent that the City of Toronto will do it's best to diffuse debate on issues - I believe in the end though democracy will prevail.

So one wouldn't choose to bathe in the snow dump runoff. But just how bad are the local effects and are they lesser or greater than ANY alternative solution? (But go ahead and confirm the Toronto Complaint Methodology by ignoring those questions and replying with more persecution complex).

Soil samples have been taken. They are publicly available. You yourself cited the report. If those levels are as serious as you claim, wouldn't they violate MOE standards? Isn't there already environmental law in place to deal with such significant sources of pollution? Or is it possible these dumps do not represent the catastrophic threat you claim? Maybe democracy actually is working but you just don't like its outcome.

For that matter, have you looked at air quality levels next to the 401? What about soil samples from gas stations?

I'll bet both of those have elevated levels of nasty substances. Would you think a rational response would be to close the 401 and forbid any and all gas stations from the City of Toronto?

No, you wouldn't because the economic and environmental impact of such actions would be greater than the harm they currently present. That's why when a gas station closes down they have to remove the underground tanks and clean up the soil before another development can occur on the land.

As far as the Downsview site goes, I'd be far more worried about my safety driving down the Allen, at the mercy of some irresponsible driver trying to video tape while driving, than I am about any threat from the melting snow.

Feel free to post whatever diatribe you like, but if you are not willing to contribute to the discussion and engage in two way communication, don't be surprised if others aren't willing to give your posts much credence.