Snow Dump Near Downsview Park

[Asterix]

It's really really unfortunate that we live in a city that pre-occupies itself with banning coffee cups .... but allows these sites to grow .... then asks people who raise the concern "what would you do?".

But that is still a valid question, even if you don't like it.

This is Canada, it snows in the winter, sometimes it snows a lot.

When this happens, there are two basic choices:

1) Plow the inner city streets as best as possible, leaving large mounds of snow along the edges, blocking needed on-street parking spaces, lanes of traffic, and sight lines for pedestrians and motorists. When this snow melts in the spring, it will run directly into the sewers and straight on in to the lake, carrying with it accumulated garbage and any other on-street debris and contaminants.

2) Remove those large mounds of snow, likely to a centralized site. This will reduce inner city gridlock and improve safety. When this snow melts in the spring, it will be filtered through the ground before making its way to the lake. Accumulated debris can then be scooped up from the pile remnants and disposed of in accordance with standard waste management criteria.

So, presuming that like most people, option 2 is the most appealing, a location for this snow pile needs to be determined. Where should it be?

It needs to be close enough to where the snow is being removed from (you don't want to spend all your time and money with the trucks travelling long distances) but it also needs to be set apart from residential and preferably commercial areas.

Given all those criteria, I don't see there being a much more appropriate location. As mentioned by other posters above, any actual localized contamination is relatively minimal, especially when compared to other development options. Also reiterating that just because there is a plan to build housing on that specific site doesn't mean that it is going to happen any time soon (I'd be very surprised if it happens within 10 years).

Back to the original point and all things considered, which of the two options would you pick? If neither, what other alternative would you suggest?

 

[activeday]

Back to the original point and all things considered, which of the two options would you pick? If neither, what other alternative would you suggest?

Hi Atserix - great points and well thought out. I'm sure we both mean well.

For the question about what alternative would you suggest - I would suggest that we get legislation in place ( province wide ) that addresses the long term environmental issues these dumps pose. Right now it's basically a free for all. Each city / area has carte blanche to do as they please.

My research so far shows that there are 7 or 8 isolated groups across Toronto - each trying to fight for the people in their little area, but as of yet have not had a chance to stand up as one voice and have the matter addressed by any local politician or department.

Perhaps as a result of the amalgamation we don't see ourselves yet as one city that can fight for the rights of the people in it. We still look at things like these dumps in an old city way ( i.e. there's one in North York ... there's one in Etobicoke ... there one in Scarborough .... ).

The effects of these dumps are long term and are not pretty.

I only ask one thing of you - and that's please give me the opportunity to raise the concern, without shooting me down because I don't have the ideal solution to such a massive problem.

I, in turn, respect your comments and believe that an open debate about this issue is a healthy way to start to find a good and alternative solution.

Again - I believe we both mean the best, I also think your thoughts and ideas are really good and meaningful.

 

[afransen]

The effects of these dumps are long term and are not pretty.

What I was getting at earlier is that you need to back this up. Are snow dumps any worse than the average?

 

[Asterix]

I only ask one thing of you - and that's please give me the opportunity to raise the concern, without shooting me down because I don't have the ideal solution to such a massive problem.

Fair enough, but as the above poster reiterated, just what are the concerns you wish to raise?

Yes, there is garbage in the piles - cups, wrappers, stuff discarded on the streets. But when the pile melts, these will remain and can easily be scooped up and carted off to proper waste disposal. That's less likely to happen had they been left on the original street.

Are there bad chemicals (oil, fluids) in the piles? Likely, but really, how much?

Most of the snow that gets piled up in the street prior to trucking never even touches the road itself - it falls on top of previously fallen snow and then gets plowed into bigger heaps before it gets scooped up and trucked to a snow dump. These on-street snowpiles are the exact things kids play and build forts in, so I don't think it is toxic snow (even when piled three-four stories high).

The pile is black now, but I would suggest that is because it is adjacent to the Allen and any particulate emissions coats the snow. If the pile weren't there, these particulates would settle on the level ground, so the snow dump isn't bringing with it any further environmental impact.

Again, if you have definitive information to the contrary, by all means, share it.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

this is the site of a former military base. i wouldn't be worried about a pile of dirty snow. that would be very low on my list of things to worry about.


now i'm not suggesting anything but if you gotta be paranoid, where's your priorities man?

 

[andomano]

The pile is black now, but I would suggest that is because it is adjacent to the Allen and any particulate emissions coats the snow. If the pile weren't there, these particulates would settle on the level ground, so the snow dump isn't bringing with it any further environmental impact.

The pile is black because of sand used on the road that was already mixed in the snow, and from aeolian driven sediments becoming entrained.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

don't forget asphalt pavement granules scraped up from metal snow plow blades.

 

[activeday]

No problem for getting more info - These are the environmental impacts as written by a local Toronto Author about the pile near the Don Valley:

http://www.lehan.ca/index.php?id=16

As quoted in the article:

" It’s snow removed from Toronto’s city’s streets, and it’s causing serious and unprevented environmental damage to Canada’s most urban river. A 2005 environmental assessment conducted by the city concluded that continued use of the site without taking environmental protective measures would have ‘a major effect on the terrestrial’ and ‘aquatic systems’ in the area.

The environmental impact of the snow removal sites on the Don Valley was serious enough that the Task Force to Bring back the Don successfully lobbied the city to close the Pottery Road snow removal site further north along the river.

Do you think these people were also "paranoid"? or do you think they did a really great thing and stand up against an action that was wrong? My vote would be the latter.

Oh - and before someone writes that "this makes sense because going into a river is "bad", but going into the ground is "good" ... please please please know that this argument isn't really effective.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

No problem for getting more info - These are the environmental impacts as written by a local Toronto Author about the pile near the Don Valley:

http://www.lehan.ca/index.php?id=16

As quoted in the article:

" It’s snow removed from Toronto’s city’s streets, and it’s causing serious and unprevented environmental damage to Canada’s most urban river. A 2005 environmental assessment conducted by the city concluded that continued use of the site without taking environmental protective measures would have ‘a major effect on the terrestrial’ and ‘aquatic systems’ in the area.

The environmental impact of the snow removal sites on the Don Valley was serious enough that the Task Force to Bring back the Don successfully lobbied the city to close the Pottery Road snow removal site further north along the river.

Do you think these people were also "paranoid"? or do you think they did a really great thing and stand up against an action that was wrong? My vote would be the latter.

Oh - and before someone writes that "this makes sense because going into a river is "bad", but going into the ground is "good" ... please please please know that this argument isn't really effective.

LOL! you do know that storm sewers that collect street runoff (which includes melting dirty snow from streets and all kinds of salt) empty directly into our rivers and creeks without any treatment whatsoever. street runoff goes into the rivers all year long.

such a worry about the pile of snow is like going into the chernobyl nuke plant but worrying about the radiation you got exposed to last week when you got an x-ray at a ontario hospital.

 

[activeday]

"Prometheus" - I've found the best way to have a discussion is to have a mutual and fair respect for each other, without resorting to demeaning or degrading comments. When you start to criticize the person, the item that was being discussed is lost.

I would not like to see a forum like this, that really does seem to be a great place to discuss issues, turn into a Facebook where personal shots are part of things.

In fairness, and out of respect not only for myself but also for others on this board, I ask that you please remove your last post. I'm sure your ideas are really valid ----- don't taint them with sarcasm.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

"Prometheus" - I've found the best way to have a discussion is to have a mutual and fair respect for each other, without resorting to demeaning or degrading comments. When you start to criticize the person, the item that was being discussed is lost.

I would not like to see a forum like this, that really does seem to be a great place to discuss issues, turn into a Facebook where personal shots are part of things.

In fairness, and out of respect not only for myself but also for others on this board, I ask that you please remove your last post. I'm sure your ideas are really valid ----- don't taint them with sarcasm.

are you serious? how were my comments demeaning or degrading? where did i criticize a person? i have to censor my last comments because you have wrongly deemed them as offensive to you?

here were the comments i made:

LOL! you do know that storm sewers that collect street runoff (which includes melting dirty snow from streets and all kinds of salt) empty directly into our rivers and creeks without any treatment whatsoever. street runoff goes into the rivers all year long.

such a worry about the pile of snow is like going into the chernobyl nuke plant but worrying about the radiation you got exposed to last week when you got an x-ray at a ontario hospital.

 

[activeday]

"Promotheus" --- the issue is the massive snow dump here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/FriendsOfDownsview

Please feel free to debate the environmental effects - if you can't do that, kindly join another discussion.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

"Promotheus" --- the issue is the massive snow dump here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/FriendsOfDownsview

Please feel free to debate the environmental effects - if you can't do that, kindly join another discussion.

okay, let me get this straight:

1) you reply about something that's going on in the don river valley.

2) i comment on something you posted in your reply.

3) you accuse me of being demeaning, degrading and attacking the person but not the issue and suggest i should censor myself.

4) you tell me to go "join another discussion" because i'm not on topic because i replied to your post dealing with the don river valley.



mods, did i do anything wrong?

 

[Asterix]

"Promotheus" --- the issue is the massive snow dump here:

Please feel free to debate the environmental effects - if you can't do that, kindly join another discussion.

Not speaking for Prometheus here, but you already posted that video link (which includes some rather reckless driving down an expressway while simultaneously operating a video camera - surely that must be illegal).

As for debating the environmental effects, what substance have you brought to the table on that matter?

The linked video says 'Toxic Waste doesn't melt'. That sounds rather inflammatory and to me implies that you are saying the city is dumping real toxic waste in with the snow that is scooped up from city streets.

No one is denying that there is miscellaneous garbage in the pile, but this is the same garbage that is on the street and would otherwise go directly into the sewers and into the lake. If you have any evidence that genuine 'toxic waste' is added in addition to the removed snow, please share it.

Where this particular pile is located (the Downsview one, not one in the Don Valley), runoff melt will not go directly into the rivers and lake and solid garbage can easily be collected once the pile has disappeared.

While I wouldn't volunteer to bath in the runoff, you have yet to provide much of substance to suggest that the Downsview site is experiencing serious, long-lasting environmental damage.

There are no houses/businesses anywhere near the pile. There is not likely to be either any time in the near future. There is no evidence that any negative impacts due to the snow pile are any worse than paving over the area and putting up a host of buildings.

You've also previously demanded that there be province-wide legislation to address these snow dumps. Are you really serious? Are you suggesting that current environmental laws that say you can't dump 'toxic waste' are not sufficient? I have a hard time believing that and really don't think that spending millions more taxpayer dollars to produce more legislation is going to solve your issues.

If, as you claim, there is 'toxic waste' in the pile and not just standard city street detritus, file your evidence with the Ministry of the Environment. Let us know what you've uncovered.

 

[activeday]

Hi Asterix -

I guess my concern is that each time somone says "show us some evidence" ... I do. When I ask that we keep the discussion to one that focuses on the environmental impact of the dump, it seems as though I'm then open for unfair personal attacks on what I should / should not be worried about. So be it, I guess if that's the price to pay to help protect the environment, that's the price I will have to pay.

So far I have:

a/ Listed the concerns raised by the Save The Don Valley group. This group was able to have their dump closed because of the effects on the environment.

b/ Shown the effects of the dump in Ottawa, and how the dump there was shut down.

c/ Provided a link from the Ontario Municipal Board, which I believe actually forced the city to stop the dump they had planned.

d/ Shown a video that clearly shows how big this dump is ( it is, as I'm sure you will agree, by any word - huge ).

e/ Raised this concern to the citizens in Toronto.

f/ Asked for help ( through this board ) as to what the best way to approach the issue is.

I have received great advice, so I think this board is really effective in providing a means to get people talking about issues.


One "but" .... is each time I provide clear evidence of what is happening, there seems to be a "non-technical" discussion that leads more towards a comment on personality than the actual problem.

If that is the point of this board ( personal, rather than technical ) no problem. I get it, and that's fine. I've seen enough posts about "David Miller did this" and "David Miller did that" to get an overall picture on the direction I guess I'm supposed to take. I just can't take that direction - I really believe in open and reasonable discussions without personal slander.

This problem is big - it won't go away and will impact all of us. The city has, from what I have been able to gather, considered many options but cost is a factor ( which is normal ).

Let's focus on the problem.

Putting a lot of waste over a lmited amount of space will have an immediate and direct impact on the land below it.

Please keep in mind that sometimes a city / government does things that we later regret and try to change. If you need me to provide examples of this, no problem.

Again - I sincerely appreciate your thoughts and also the reciprocal challenges you bring.