Smitherman's Transit plan

[Fresh Start]

You are very much correct.

However, such a scheme is not politically popular in the system we have now. Mayor candidates aren't going to get the required votes from suburbanites by putting DRL ahead of suburban extensions.

When Mayor Lastman built a subway that started and stopped within North York, did anyone out of borough complain then? I think most constiuents citywide would be more than gracious if the TTC, instead of holding out for billion dollar windfalls, just implemented more common-sense affordable solutions to making transit faster and more reliable. It only costs millions to paint bus lanes down major arteries, install TSP lights and allow passengers to board from the rear door to lessen delays and trip durations.

The only suburban extension needed in egress is a three stop extension of the Bloor Line to Scarborough Centre.

 

[Fresh Start]

You make zero sense.

...

 

[Fresh Start]

Smitherman’s plan simply a transit lover’s fantasy

George Smitherman says on his website that city hall cannot “keep spending and expanding no matter what the cost.” Instead, the city needs to “fit our budgets to our means.” On Friday, the very same George Smitherman announced a plan to spend $7-billion on new transit lines – with barely a hint of how he would pay for it. The Smitherman plan, released at a slickly organized downtown fundraiser for his mayoral bid, is a transit lover’s fantasy. Between now and 2020, he would do everything from building a new Sheppard West subway to extending the Bloor subway line to Sherway Gardens to fast-tracking the extension of the Spadina subway to York University.

Seven billion is a lot of money for a city with an annual operating budget of $9.2-billion. Where on earth would a city with chronic money problems find that kind of cash? Well, simple: Mr. Smitherman’s Toronto would take out a loan. Why didn’t anybody else think of that? Mr. Smitherman says he would contract with private companies to build the transit lines, leaving the city to pay for them “over time.” “This model,” he patiently explains, “is most similar to a mortgage model used by many of us to achieve the joys of home ownership before we have all of the money to pay for the full purchase price.”

If this is what pundits consider to be a transit lover's fantasy, then there is no more love.

I was waiting for the Liberal tax and spend - something for everyone BS plan to come out. Overpriced and high-maintenance LRTs - Lane blockages and bike lanes. High spending and pie-in-the-sky funding promises. Typical Liberal vote buying from the deputy premier. I hope Toronto has learned their lesson from past promises and give this crap the attention it deserves - NONE! This is all for naught anyway if there's no Downtown Relief Line. The city cannot continue to add more traffic to our already overburdened transit system. Try getting on a train at Broadview Stn at 8:30am and then switching to head south on the Yonge Line? It's torture. You're almost guaranteed not to get on the first train that arrives and when you do, you're up in someone's armpit.

This is basically Miller's Transit City plan with a little bit of subways thrown in. The subways he wants to build will cost billions of dollars alone and aren't as critically needed as ones across Eglinton and through the downtown core. How will he pay for it? He had a chance when he was Minister of Infrastructure to get funding for Transit in Toronto and he blew it. Does that $17 Billion include the requisite $1 Billion for consultants like under the e-Health fiasco?

Not in this lifetime, George.

 

[ssiguy2]

More streetcars, more Mickey Mouse.
NO line should be built if is is not totally grade separated.............................that is what the rest of the planet calls mass transit. Where is the use of all the rail ROW for rapid/mass transit.
If these are the proposals from your potential mayors then this will be yet another lost decade.

 

[nfitz]

Show me one subway you support other than the mythical DRL

I have argued here to support 3 other lines in Toronto other than the DRL. The Spadina extension, the Yonge extension, and extending Sheppard to Victoria Park. I've also been pretty neutral on a Sheppard extension to Downsview.

There you go lying again. No one ever said "the" Lawrence East station would remain, just "a" Lawrence East. You know that and you purposely obfuscated the truth for your own misinformation purposes.

That is not my recollection; I recall being quite clear. I certainly never purposely obfuscated the truth. However I can't find the thread, if you would kindly point it to me, I'll gladly reread it.

Two of us can play this lying game.

Well I'm glad you admit to lying ... but I wish you would stop. I have never lied to you ... and I find it frustrating that you consider lying acceptable behaviour. It isn't. Don't do it. Please stop it.

 

[nfitz]

Sadly yes. However the only thing I agree with him on is extending the B-D subway to STC. Make the STC the transfer point for the propose Scarborough LRT and the B-D Subway, it makes sense.

He didn't propose that; he's provided no connectivity between the LRT and his proposed Danforth extension. And he's also gone out of his way to route the subway along the existing SRT alignment, which is just bizarre.

 

[nfitz]

Sherway extension would have as high a usage as Kipling Stn if several bus routes were to be redirected to Sherway Gardens instead.

It would ... but when they looked at the Sherway extension previously, they didn't consider moving the bus terminal to the proposed West Mall/Queensway location. It doesn't seem to offer much advantage to Islington or Kipling for many of the routes that run out of that station.

Not to mention many thousands of daily walk-ins.

Leslie has thousands of daily walk-ins. That in itself doesn't justify a subway.

 

[LAz]

It saddens me greatly that this guy would not extend Sheppard Eastwards to Victoria Park or Warden. What troubles me more is that he seems to want a long tunnel on Eglinton, but to make it a tram tunnel instead of a metro tunnel. If one bothers to dig so much, it may as well be a metro.

If he took my two suggestions, I'd support him in a heartbeat.




I like Sheppard West. My cuddos for that. I think it's the single thing that can give the biggest uplift to the system for the lowest cost. It's a missing link. Sheppard looks so dumb without it.

 

[JWBF]

I just don't know... spurs everywhere will no care or proposals of future extension in my opinion is just plain daft.

ECTLRT needs to be inclusive, hooking up with the rail line from Union to Pearson in fine for those only going to the airport but there is a lot to city; if you must connect to the Person rail then do so but also extend the ECTLRT to Renforth or Centennial Park Blvd in the west and to the Sheppard line via Kingston and Morningside.

Extending the Bloor-Danforth is fine, especially converting the SRT to a subway; however, Sherway Gardens? I say extend the subway along Bloor to Renforth or Mill Road. I agree that the Spadina line should run into Vaughn, but forgetting an subway extension into at least Richmond Hill (I would like an extension into Newmarket) is short sighted. If you want to cut down on traffic congestion then you have to address the main corridors. Call me crazy but I would like to see better transit along Steeles with possibly transit hubs and such.

A DRL is a must (Don Mills, College, Dufferin alignment), as well as a ROW like a LRT under or over Queen that would run from Vic Park to The West Mall.

Sheppard and Finch should run cross town, if not now then by 2030, LRT/BRT/Subway, take your pick.

I'm sure people will disagree with me; however, I'm allowed to ante my 2 cents like everyone else.

 

[kettal]

He didn't propose that; he's provided no connectivity between the LRT and his proposed Danforth extension. And he's also gone out of his way to route the subway along the existing SRT alignment, which is just bizarre.

the alignment on the map means nothing. The map was obviously thrown together very sloppily, as evidenced with the Eglinton line ending in the wrong place.

 

[Asterix]

More streetcars, more Mickey Mouse.
Where is the use of all the rail ROW for rapid/mass transit.

Off the top of my head, I can think of several possible reasons:
- the rail ROWs are already owned by 3rd parties (CP and CN);
- the rail ROWs are being extensively used by their owners who aren't about to let someone else mess that up;
- many/most rail ROWs are not in locations conducive to anything beyond regional rail (GO).

I'm sure someone else could easily come up with more.

 

[Justin10000]

Off the top of my head, I can think of several possible reasons:
- the rail ROWs are already owned by 3rd parties (CP and CN);
- the rail ROWs are being extensively used by their owners who aren't about to let someone else mess that up;
- many/most rail ROWs are not in locations conducive to anything beyond regional rail (GO).

I'm sure someone else could easily come up with more.

When Rail lines are used expansion, the rail line is already abaondoned.

 

[valkoholic]

An unbelievably weak funding strategy:

"George Smitherman will contract with the private sector to partner on the construction of additional transit capacity in a design, build and finance model. This model is similar to the mortgage model used by many of us to achieve home ownership before we have the money to pay the full purchase price. Under the terms of the arrangement, the TTC – and by extension the people of Toronto – would be the customer. Once the lines are completed, the City will have an annual financial obligation that will be met through the establishment of the Transit Trust.

Toronto Transit Trust is a City account that will be funded through Toronto’s share of the Provincial and Federal gas tax, Toronto Hydro and Toronto Parking Authority dividends, and fees generated through transit-enabled development."

i.e. we'll borrow the money. Thanks George, my kids will be happy to pay the bill.

The entire debate about what line to build seems moot until a firm funding plan is availible. At least Thomson had the guts to propose something.

 

[Northern Light]

On the plan itself (funding excluded)

1) Extending B-D to STC makes enormous sense, using the existing ROW makes none. The alignment should be, east under Eglinton to Danforth (station); north on Danforth to Lawrence (serving Scarborough General Hospital, a major employer/trip generator); then on to STC. Much better.

2) Extension to Sherway, fine, I suppose, but by itself, not a particularly useful extension when compared with other priorities, I would tend to put this one on the back burner for now, longer-term as part of a subway to MCC, maybe, though, I'm not sure I want a 75km long B-D Subway.....

3)Sheppard to Downsview, very sensible from the point of view of creating redundant access to Sheppard Subway and North Yonge line in the event of a incident shutting down the mid-town Yonge line. Also creates much better access to York U from the east, and to NYCC from the west. Still I would rank it no better than 4th on my list (after the current Spadina, DRL and B-D to STC)

4)Eglinton: This line is becoming a fiasco. Where a subway is required (or will be due to growth) the proposal is inadequate, while in other areas its over kill. Start over. Eglinton WEST of Yonge needs a subway at some point. Build that, no LRT component; it ends at Yonge. East of Yonge, put the LRT on the surface the whole way, no underground part, right-sizing!

5)Finch West LRT; sure, but only if you serve Humber College

6)Sheppard East LRT, sure; but only from Victoria Park East, have the subway go east to Vic Park; have the connection on the surface.

7) DRL is a must, and is totally sell-able in the burbs; Mike Thompson is in favour of it. You need the back-up to portions of Bloor and Yonge, as well as crowding alleviation.

*****

Funding:

What funding?

Borrow most; hide some on private-sector balance sheets?

Not Credible.

At minimum, some new form of revenue will be required, be that a parking tax or a toll scheme etc.

Reducing the Veh. Reg. Tax just creates a black hole in the budget.

Free service for seniors? When we're going to automatic fare collection? Really? How's that gonna work?

Back to the drawing board for George on this one.

 

[gweed123]

You are very much correct.

However, such a scheme is not politically popular in the system we have now. Mayor candidates aren't going to get the required votes from suburbanites by putting DRL ahead of suburban extensions.

A lot of suburban people do support transit expansion. They just have to be shown how it will benefit them. For a lot of people, a subway or LRT at their doorstep is seen as a much bigger advantage than a subway downtown. However, what can be explained to them is that building a subway downtown first will help reduce the congestion on their subway ride. I would venture to say that people would be less jaded about transit if they didn't have to get packed into a subway car like a sardine every morning, or waiting 2 trains to actually get on.

Even if the new line doesn't directly benefit them, you can still make the case that the secondary benefit of reduced congestion will make their ride more enjoyable (or at the very least, more tolerable). You don't need to put a subway or LRT at someone's doorstep to improve their transit ride.