Smitherman's Transit plan

[kettal]

I almost see New York as chicken and egg. Did they get the density because of the subways or did the subways come because of the density?

That offers some interesting observations here. Despite costing 1 billion per mile, they are still building subway in New York. That should tell you something.

And given the fact that New York has one of the oldest subway systems in the world, most of their system was certainly not built when the population was at 10 million. So are New Yorkers just far-sighted?

Imagine if the naysayers in New York had fought against subway expension decades ago, saying the city didn't have the population base to fill up the subways. Where would New York be today?

Sure, an all-subway plan is foolish. But so is an all-LRT plan. (And don't give me that crap about the Spadina subway. If that wasn't there, it wouldn't end up as LRT anyway.)

I am looking for a politician who offers a balanced plan. I see some elements of that in Smitherman's plan.

New York's subways were built by private enterprise at a time when doing so was relatively cheap, and there were no cars or expressway alternatives. If a private business wants to fund and run a new subway network in Toronto, then I can't see why anyone would object. Not going to happen.

 

[gweed123]

'Assuming' those numbers are right, that's a terrible measure with very little forward thinking. And quite frankly, extremely myopic
A more appropraite measure should be the density at the time NYC decided to built the subways?
And also, you ahve to look at the corridor which the subway will be built, etc.

If we wait until we have the same density as NYC, it will have been 20 years too late... which we already are!

The subways were built because there was some density. They then built the subway, which in turn created more density. The chicken caused the egg, which it turn hatched into another chicken, which makes them need another egg.

 

[gweed123]

And now, with the understanding that I don't necessarily like TC, are you equating the urban context of DLR against TC lines, and the further assertion that LRTs are practically useless, which is the point of my rebuttal?

AoD

I don't think LRT as a technology is useless, it certainly does have it's place when it's implemented properly. Nearly all of Ottawa's upgraded Transitway LRT system will be grade-separated. However, LRT as implemented in Transit City is a multi-billion dollar waste of money that will only result in a negligable increase in service quality, and will only serve to overload the existing subway lines in the city.

Just because I don't like HOW LRT is being applied, does not mean that I don't like LRT. Just because I don't like Nickelback doesn't mean I don't like Rock. Despite me having said this over and over again, certain members on here will likely continue to paint me as 'anti-LRT' just because I don't agree with the very narrow application of LRT that is TC.

 

[gweed123]

Except that he is a wuss by not putting DRL there. That should be the priority new line, period.

AoD

+Whichever number we need to get that damn thing built.

 

[gweed123]

That has to be the most idiotic things that's been said here. Do you have any basis for these comments, or are you just pulling it out of your imagination?

Are you so fiscally irresponsible that you'd build subway where they aren't needed? Are you one of those real stupid candidates that want a subway for a demand of 700 people per hour?

Why all the lies? Are you just doing it for fun?

If we could have had $1 for everytime you have pulled out that 700pph figure, we could have raised enough money to build the extension by now...

 

[nfitz]

Yes, because pretty little Europeanized streetcars are going to solve that problem fine.

A thirty metre long streetcar is little? We're talking about stringing 2 or 3 together for the new lines ... that's a 90-metre long vehicle! I'd hate to see a streetcar that isn't little!

 

[nfitz]

The subways were built because there was some density. They then built the subway, which in turn created more density.

Remember that those 4-track subways weren't original. Originally they had 3 or 4 elevated railways down Manhattan (and surely streetcars before that). The subways effectively replaced the elevated railways ... which only continued to exist in the outer Boroughs.

Got to have the egg, before you have the chicken!

 

[SimonP]

I almost see New York as chicken and egg. Did they get the density because of the subways or did the subways come because of the density?

The differing densities have a lot to do with when the cities were built. New York was a major metropolis long before the development of the automobile. In that time going by foot or by mass transit were the only ways to get around town for most people. This led to both high densities and a large transit network. One didn't cause the other, they were both caused by the same external factor. This is also why the cities of Europe are much denser and have better transit than Toronto.

New York also had the additional help of a very constrained geography, with water on all sides forcing any sprawl to be more expensive and distant. This further helped make New York the dense transit mecca it is today.

 

[Dan416]

I put it down as ignorance in general. I cannot believe people still think just buses, and subways(or grade separated rail transit) is the key to solving congestion

If you had any credibility left, this post would destroy it. Since you don't, problem solved. Happy trolling.

FYI a lot of LRT uses grade separation. So you just eliminated basically every form of transit available.

 

[Justin10000]

If you had any credibility left, this post would destroy it. Since you don't, problem solved. Happy trolling.

FYI a lot of LRT uses grade separation. So you just eliminated basically every form of transit available.

Losing credibilty with you is like dropping a penny on the ground. Who cares.

I, and many transit planners can see the benefits of surface rail in a transit network. It's amazing you, and a few others cannot. I pity you, if you cannoy think grade-separated transit, and buses.

 

[kEiThZ]

New York's subways were built by private enterprise at a time when doing so was relatively cheap, and there were no cars or expressway alternatives. If a private business wants to fund and run a new subway network in Toronto, then I can't see why anyone would object. Not going to happen.

That was a long time ago. Is it private industry that's paying a billion/mile today?

Yet, there's nobody running around NYC saying, "OMG, do you know much LRT we could get instead of building more subway for 1 billion/mile?

 

[Second_in_pie]

Losing credibilty with you is like dropping a penny on the ground. Who cares.

I, and many transit planners can see the benefits of surface rail in a transit network. It's amazing you, and a few others cannot. I pity you, if you cannoy think grade-separated transit, and buses.

God, how many times does it take for you to understand that nobody, I think here, is against LRT as a system. LRT would work quite well on many routes in Toronto.

It's the prioritization and the way the system's being built. Toronto right now needs to build the backbone of our system. LRT can't act as that backbone. Not for a city of 2.5 + million, urban area of 5.5+ million and metropolis of 8.1+ million, growing each year. Toronto's transit system is woefully incomplete. You can talk about all of the kms of subway we have, but it doesn't excuse the fact that we've got gigantic system gaps and the TTC's ridership is growing astronomically.

LRT just isn't right for Toronto now. We need the big transit pieces right now; the DRL, Eglinton, and Sheppard. LRT can't replace those lines, and you can't prioritize smaller LRT lines over those 3 big ones that are necessary for the city's transit success.

 

[ssiguy2]

The thing that I find bizzare is that none of the mayoral proposed systems are anything more than just mickey mouse. Any of your candidates will after 10 years leave Toronto with much more than it has now and it already has one of the smallest mass/rapid transit systems in the industrial world for a city over 5 million. For Toronto to even keep it's head above water it must at a very minimum double it's rapid transit system within 20 years and Eglinton is NOT rapid transit but rather improved transit.

 

[nfitz]

We need the big transit pieces right now; the DRL, Eglinton, and Sheppard. LRT can't replace those lines, and you can't prioritize smaller LRT lines over those 3 big ones that are necessary for the city's transit success.

The forecast demands for neither the Sheppard extensions or much of Eglinton don't approach what can be justified for Subway. Yet you ignore routes with higher demand such as north of Finch station or northeast of Kennedy?

 

[Fresh Start]

The forecast demands for neither the Sheppard extensions or much of Eglinton don't approach what can be justified for Subway. Yet you ignore routes with higher demand such as north of Finch station or northeast of Kennedy?

What now? The demand northeast of Kennedy is travelling primarily to Scarborough Town Centre where the Sheppard East subway would be heading. Swap Agincourt in for Lawrence East as your intermediary trip generator and we're still talking about a high daily yield of riders that'd use it. Demand north of Finch Stn is York Region's problem, nothing a Toronto Mayoral candidate should have to worry about. The TTC had a choice in 2006 to approve a dedicated bus lane down Yonge from Finch to Steeles which would do away with a majority of the congestion issues but they chose instead to massage RHC planners' egos instead.

The TTC says Eglinton is at 5400 ppdph by 2031. Both the census and existing demand put that figure at much higher level considering the high volume of transferees a subway along the same route could attract. And we all know for a fact that 17,500 pph minimum would utilize a DRL. So yes, let's by all means extend the YUS further and further into suburbia where park' n' ride commuters will overcrowd morning rush trains before we even arrive in Toronto proper (Lawrence southwards) meanwhile it takes close to an hour or longer for east-west routes to dump passengers onto the Yonge Line. And let's build the new TC light-rail lines in a disjointed, fragmented manner such that one's one-seat bus commute from the far end of the city directly to the subway becomes a three ring circus as in Sheppard's case of bus + LRT + "stubway" + subway taking 90 minutes to complete.