SmartTrack (Proposed)

[Burnt creek]

Some might argue that the DRL should go through Union, but they were never going to get enough relief of Yonge-Bloor if they went that far south, so that was never going to happen.

why not? King, Queen and Union stations are the ones (on the Yonge line) where clearly (by far) the most people disembark in the morning rush hour.

Also, if you disembark on Union station, you can easily walk to any work location that is closely associated with King, Queen and St Andrew Station stops.

 

[nfitz]

why not? King, Queen and Union stations are the ones (on the Yonge line) where clearly (by far) the most people disembark in the morning rush hour.

Where do you get this? Dundas is busier than King or Queen. When I ride in AM peak, all 3 of those I don't see a lot disembarking at Union - more seem to board there.

If you can walk from Union to Queen, you can walk from Queen to Union!

 

[BurlOak]

Queen to Union is downhill.

(AM rush being more important than PM.)

 

[W. K. Lis]

From the TTC, at this link:

Busiest Stations (Estimated passenger trips to and from trains daily)

• Bloor (Yonge-University) … 216,200
• Yonge (Bloor-Danforth) … 193,000
• St George (Bloor-Danforth) … 140,500
• St George (Yonge-University) … 134,900
• Union … 125,200
• Finch … 90,900
• Eglinton … 77,500
• Sheppard-Yonge (Yonge-University) … 76,800
• Dundas … 75,800
• Kennedy (Bloor-Danforth) … 71,40

From this link:

Queen 52,300
King 61,360
Dundas 75,780
College 47,940
Wellesley 24,480

 

[BurlOak]

If we assume Sheppard subway is little used, then Sheppard station has huge numbers. All stations with more usage (well, if we wait 5 years for ECLRT) are at interchange or terminal stations.

It might even suggest that if Sheppard line was not such a stub, there is the population to warrant more transit.

 

[nfitz]

From the TTC, at this link:

From this link:

Queen 52,300
King 61,360
Dundas 75,780
College 47,940
Wellesley 24,480

Yes that sounds about right. Union is busier, but I reckon in AM peak, there are more people boarding at Union than getting off. And it always seems to me, that more people get off at Dundas, Queen, or King, than Union ... heck, I'd say as many if not more go around the loop and get off at St. Andrew than Union.

So a lot of those Union passengers are GO passengers (or those that live in southcore) getting on the subway. They are not the problem (the ones travelling south on the Yonge line in the morning peak).

 

[robmausser]

When i first heard of ST, i thought that this was one of (if not ) the best policy idea that i had seen from this city in the 25 years that i have been living here. It got my vote. What i envisioned was a surface subway system that would use mostly existing infrastructure and thus requiring far far less capital expenditures than building something from scratch. And, i saw this eliminating the need for a downtown relief line. I also liked that: 1) frequencies were somewhat close (though not quite) to subway-like, 2) i thought and liked that it would be integrated in all facets (routes, transfers, fares) to the Existing TTC service, 3) that it connected the three major work hubs in toronto and Canada (ie: the airport area is the second largest work hub in Canada) and would open access to work for many in the City and thus massively reduce rush hour pressures and nightmares.

It was about getting people to their workplace quickly which is the most important thing about public transit. So I still think it is a great idea. But its starting to look like all these good things are being chipped away at. Of greater concern to is the that i never envisioned that two years in there wouldnt be a shovel in the ground. Yes, i get that you need stakeholder buy in, secure the financing, create a business case, develop and document a plan and issue RFP's. But still, the first three points were pretty much there from the start.

It still is a good idea, and will still be of great value, as it won't cost anything close to the 7 billion pitched early on.

People keep forgetting that the Eglinton West LRT is getting built because of Smarttrack. Its actually the better decision for that corridor too. Far better.

Right now all that needs to be secured is fare integration at Smarttrack stations with TTC. As long as that happens things are still looking pretty.

8 minute frequencies at peak times is exactly in line with what was pitched during the Tory campaign. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be quite enough as it turns out. 5 minute would be much better, but again, at the current lower cost I still think this is a wise investment.

Who knows, if the province invests in some high tech PTC or another set of tracks in the georgetown south/stouffville corridor we might be able to get that up to the coveted trains ever 5 minutes.

As for trains every 15 minutes off-peak, I don't see what the technical limitation for this is, it seems purely based on what Metrolinx thinks is in demand. From a technical perspective, one would think that if we can run trains every 8 minutes on peak through the Smarttrack corridor, we can do it off peak too. You could just run some shorter EMU's during this time every 8 minutes specifically only from Unionville to Mount Dennis. Obviously would need more trains and engineers, staff etc, but if you are running subways every 5 minutes on the weekends and evenings I fail to see what the difference is. Just a different tech.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

So I still think it is a great idea. But its starting to look like all these good things are being chipped away at.

Nothing is being chipped away at. All of SmartTrack's ideas were simply that: ideas. Ideas don't equate to fesiable plans. This "chipping away" is simply the realities of this poorly thought out idea coming to roost.

This was the predicable outcome; everything the transport experts warned about this idea turned out to be true. Tory called them nagging nannies and unfortunately voters bought the crap Tory was pushing.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It still is a good idea, and will still be of great value, as it won't cost anything close to the 7 billion pitched early on.

People keep forgetting that the Eglinton West LRT is getting built because of Smarttrack. Its actually the better decision for that corridor too. Far better.

Right now all that needs to be secured is fare integration at Smarttrack stations with TTC. As long as that happens things are still looking pretty.

8 minute frequencies at peak times is exactly in line with what was pitched during the Tory campaign. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem to be quite enough as it turns out. 5 minute would be much better, but again, at the current lower cost I still think this is a wise investment.

Who knows, if the province invests in some high tech PTC or another set of tracks in the georgetown south/stouffville corridor we might be able to get that up to the coveted trains ever 5 minutes.

As for trains every 15 minutes off-peak, I don't see what the technical limitation for this is, it seems purely based on what Metrolinx thinks is in demand. From a technical perspective, one would think that if we can run trains every 8 minutes on peak through the Smarttrack corridor, we can do it off peak too. You could just run some shorter EMU's during this time every 8 minutes specifically only from Unionville to Mount Dennis. Obviously would need more trains and engineers, staff etc, but if you are running subways every 5 minutes on the weekends and evenings I fail to see what the difference is. Just a different tech.

The general service concept for SmartTrack was wonderful, with the only issues being the low frequencies of the initial proposal and the Eglinton West spur. But the idea of it costing $7 Billion and built on existing rails was complete nonsense. If someone were willing to spend $20 Billion to build dedicated rails for ST service, we'd have a wonderful new transit line.

 

[crs1026]

The general service concept for SmartTrack was wonderful, with the only issues being the low frequencies of the initial proposal and the Eglinton West spur. But the idea of it costing $7 Billion and built on existing rails was complete nonsense. If someone were willing to spend $20 Billion to build dedicated rails for ST service, we'd have a wonderful new transit line.

I wonder what the spend will end up being.

7 or 8 GO stations at $150M each (extravagant guesstimate) - $1B
15 trains at $40M per train - $600M
Crosstown West LRT - $1.5 B

Electrification - no additional cost beyond RER
Track - no additional cost beyond RER

- Paul

 

[Burnt creek]

Where do you get this? Dundas is busier than King or Queen.
!

No way. Dundas is busier than King & Queen at rush hour? Not a chance. I have been taking the yonge line down to the downtown area for work for the most part of 25 years. The vast majority of people disembark at King stn and next or close next is Queen and or union. You can take that to bank. No number contradicting this is going to convince me otherwise. I have seen it and experience it to this day because i seldom have a seat to sit in until Queen stn stop. At Rush hour (betwn 8:00 and 8:30 am and 5-6 PM) King, Queen, and Union are the busiest. Not Dundas.

Where are those huge office towers located with all the headquarters for the banks, corporate law firms, consultants.etc located? The largest and tallest office towers in the city are located in the Front, King, Adelaide areas betwn Yonge and Peter ( more or less) and they cant be sitting empty. City hall is close to Dundas stn and there is the Bell trinity offices and Ryerson. But the rest is retail and shopping.

Where ever those numbers came from, they are either wrong or they dont apply to rush hour only. In regards to congestion and relief on the yonge line, other than rush hour traffic is there any relief ever needed? Its at rush hour where the system is over taxed.

 

[Palma]

No way. Dundas is busier than King & Queen at rush hour? Not a chance. I have been taking the yonge line down to the downtown area for work for the most part of 25 years. The vast majority of people disembark at King stn and next or close next is Queen and or union. You can take that to bank. No number contradicting this is going to convince me otherwise. I have seen it and experience it to this day because i seldom have a seat to sit in until Queen stn stop. At Rush hour (betwn 8:00 and 8:30 am and 5-6 PM) King, Queen, and Union are the busiest. Not Dundas.

Where are those huge office towers located with all the headquarters for the banks, corporate law firms, consultants.etc located? The largest and tallest office towers in the city are located in the Front, King, Adelaide areas betwn Yonge and Peter ( more or less) and they cant be sitting empty. City hall is close to Dundas stn and there is the Bell trinity offices and Ryerson. But the rest is retail and shopping.

Where ever those numbers came from, they are either wrong or they dont apply to rush hour only. In regards to congestion and relief on the yonge line, other than rush hour traffic is there any relief ever needed. Its at rush hour where they system is over taxed.

I agree, Those numbers must be for times throughout the day due to the Eaton Centre and Ryerson University

 

[Burnt creek]

From the TTC, at this link:

Busiest Stations (Estimated passenger trips to and from trains daily)

• Bloor (Yonge-University) … 216,200
• Yonge (Bloor-Danforth) … 193,000
• St George (Bloor-Danforth) … 140,500
• St George (Yonge-University) … 134,900
• Union … 125,200
• Finch … 90,900
• Eglinton … 77,500
• Sheppard-Yonge (Yonge-University) … 76,800
• Dundas … 75,800
• Kennedy (Bloor-Danforth) … 71,40

From this link:

Queen 52,300
King 61,360
Dundas 75,780
College 47,940
Wellesley 24,480

Let me see if i have this straight, are you suggesting through those numbers that at rush hour more people disembark at St George or Finch than King stn? The five tallest office towers in canada are closest to King and Union stn areas. And something like twelve of the top fifteen largest office towers in Canada are in areas bounded by the lake to Queen str and Yonge to university strs. Not to mention many of the largest corporate entities in canada are headquartered in this area. Most are closest to King stn.

 

[nfitz]

No way. Dundas is busier than King & Queen at rush hour? Not a chance. I have been taking the yonge line down to the downtown area for work for the most part of 25 years. The vast majority of people disembark at King stn and next or close next is Queen and or union. You can take that to bank. No number contradicting this is going to convince me otherwise. I have seen it and experience it to this day because i seldom have a seat to sit in until Queen stn stop

My point was that there were less people getting off at Union. I only pointed out that Dundas carried more passengers a day than either King or Queen.

Dundas is a bit funny, because of Ryerson. Certainly at 8 AM, King and Queen are busier. But check at 9:30 AM.

At Rush hour (betwn 8:00 and 8:30 am and 5-6 PM) King, Queen, and Union are the busiest. Not Dundas.

Rush hour is more than 30 minutes in the morning.

 

[Burnt creek]

I agree, Those numbers must be for times throughout the day due to the Eaton Centre and Ryerson University

i think that what those numbers must be doing is counting turnstile counts for the departure station. Not the turnstile counts for the arrival. And they must be doing it for the whole week (including Saturday and Sunday). Actually even then it still dont make sense to me. As far as evening rush hour many walk straight to union instead of King so that you can get a seat on the subway.

If you look at king stn, there is nobody departing from there in the morning rush hour. Few live nearest to king stn and those who do, more than likely walk to work. Weekend, is dead. But transit planning and transit issues are and must be focused on rush hour. Thats where the problems are.