SmartTrack (Proposed)

[robmausser]

Actually, it can be done if there's political will. Some subway stations have a longer escalator than that -- including one subway station in the Washington DC Metro. Also, theoretical gondolas (like Don Valley Gondola) can also be very-short-wait connection points.

But that said, DRL is more important first than 15-min AD2W on Richmond Hill line.

Theoretically, the Richmond Hill line could be a good potential "DRL2 Express" line by ~2050-2060 since it also crosses the theoretical Yonge Extension. Richmond Hill is not proposed to get all-day electrified service until the "Beyond 2041" phase in the Metrolinx 2041 Regional Transportation Plan, which pretty much puts it into a long-future DRL2 timeline.

There's some metro lines worldwide that has dense stop spacing far away, then goes practically express to a downtown core. Richmond Hill could essentially do that.

Just look at what they are proposing for the REM in Montreal to connect to the Blue line

 

[crs1026]

The ML station analysis study from a couple years back was the first time that there was a comprehensive review of where stations might be built. In the distant past, GO made those decisions on its own based as one-ofs based on ridership potential, mostly as new subirbs came on line. But then political boosterism and high level interference became the norm. Personally, I don’t find that study’s rankings and data particularly compelling or face-valid.... it reads like a ouija board analysis with a preplanned end point.

Don’t forget that the original pre-election ST pitch was based on the premise (strictly conjecture) that ST could eliminate the need and expense for higher order transit to replace the SRT. That whole line of thinking dissolved when a) actual data was developed and b) expensive subway to STC became a politically preferable position to take.

The whole issue of how well and how intensively GO should solve transit needs within the 416 is a perfectly reasonable topic on its own... but that has been solidly contaminated by all the political machinations. At this point we get what we get.... but if there ever were a topic that deserved a ‘reset’ process, it’s this one.

- Paul

 

[brh]

So is SmartTrack going to have its own separate and unique trains running back and forth on the Go line, or will they just use the existing Go Trains which stop at the "SmartTrack stations?

 

[nfitz]

Show me. Show me a single document from Metrolinx before Smarttrack was pitched (May 2014) by the mayor that talks about a Liberty Village, Gerrard, St.Clair on Kitchener Line, Unilever, Lawrence station, or Finch Station being proposed.

I never said they were Metrolinx. I said GO. There's also MTO. I wanted to make that clear before I go on a fishing expedition (which I don't have time for much of at this moment).

Stop making stuff up, I want to see proof. It doesn't exist. You keep saying many many, but never show them. If they exist, prove it.

I thought we'd discussed previously - didn't think I had to draw a map.

Who knows? It doesnt matter. They didn't. Fairy's and unicorns if there is no proof. It's really an irresponsible agenda to keep pushing without proof of it.

It does matter, depending how the mayoral election goes.

 

[Amare]

So is SmartTrack going to have its own separate and unique trains running back and forth on the Go line, or will they just use the existing Go Trains which stop at the "SmartTrack stations?

The short answer, no it will simply be GO Trains using existing and new GO stations.

John Tory managed to fool many who bought into it as the plan was flawed from the start.

 

[Sandpit]

Actually, it can be done if there's political will. Some subway stations have a longer escalator than that -- including one subway station in the Washington DC Metro. Also, theoretical gondolas (like Don Valley Gondola) can also be very-short-wait connection points.

But that said, DRL is more important first than 15-min AD2W on Richmond Hill line.

Theoretically, the Richmond Hill line could be a good potential "DRL2 Express" line by ~2050-2060 since it also crosses the theoretical Yonge Extension. Richmond Hill is not proposed to get all-day electrified service until the "Beyond 2041" phase in the Metrolinx 2041 Regional Transportation Plan, which pretty much puts it into a long-future DRL2 timeline.

There's some metro lines worldwide that has dense stop spacing far away, then goes practically express to a downtown core. Richmond Hill could essentially do that.

The main issue with the Richmond Hill line and RER is low ridership. Its ridership is so low that its replacement bus service doesn't run on weekends.

http://www.gotransit.com/timetables/en/PDF/Timetables/09171217/Table61.pdf

 

[Sandpit]

The short answer, no it will simply be GO Trains using existing and new GO stations.

John Tory managed to fool many who bought into it as the plan was flawed from the start.

I don't think it really matters in the end. Both "GO RER" and "SmartTrack" are likely to be only project names, with a different branding once it is actually in operation. The "Air-rail Link" became the "UP Express". In Vancouver, the "Richmond-Airport-Vancouver (RAV) Line" became the "Canada Line", and the "Eglinton Crosstown Line" will become "Line 5 Eglinton" once it opens.

 

[Amare]

I don't think it really matters in the end. Both "GO RER" and "SmartTrack" are likely to be only project names, with a different branding once it is actually in operation. The "Air-rail Link" became the "UP Express". In Vancouver, the "Richmond-Airport-Vancouver (RAV) Line" became the "Canada Line", and the "Eglinton Crosstown Line" will become "Line 5 Eglinton" once it opens.

I dont want to repeat myself too much on this for the nth time for the sake of redundancy, but here are the facts of what Smartrack was promised as from it's conception:

1) A separate service from GO operating with
2) Separate rolling stock,
3) Separated from GO Train traffic with its own tracks,
4) With TTC fares

1-3 are not going to happen, nor were they ever going to happen. 4 is highly dependent on Metrolinx but there is some movement on that. Smarttrack cant be compared with the Air-Rail link because it was always meant to be a service connecting passengers to the airport using DMUs. The Eglinton Crosstown Line was always conceptualized to be a rapid transit line (although there was early debated on the type of rolling stock that would be used). I cant speak to the Canada Line as i'm not familiar with Vancouver transit.

So in short it does matter since the way this project was billed as, is nothing like what it's going to turn out to be.

 

[Rainforest]

I dont want to repeat myself too much on this for the nth time for the sake of redundancy, but here are the facts of what Smartrack was promised as from it's conception:

1) A separate service from GO operating with
2) Separate rolling stock,
3) Separated from GO Train traffic with its own tracks,
4) With TTC fares

I never heard of (2) and (3). As I remember, Tory's team always avoided talks about such technical details.

 

[Amare]

I never heard of (2) and (3). As I remember, Tory's team always avoided talks about such technical details.

Well on 3 it's a bit of a mixed bag, much of "Smarttrack" was to be on GO Train corridors with the exception of the Eglinton spur. Then Tory and Co. quickly realized that there was no way those corridors could handle all that frequency, so the idea was floated to have some separate tracks in certain areas. The idea was never really formalized and it really just floated, but that was around the time Metrolinx came out in 2015 and said GO RER and Smarttrack were essentially the same thing.

With point 2, Tory repeated it again and again during the mayoral race that it would be separate trains from GO Trains. He drilled it into my head numerous times so i'll never forget that one.

Here is a quick primer for anyone who wants a quick catch up on what really happened with this concept from the start:

https://torontoist.com/2016/10/a-brief-history-of-smarttrack/

 

[Sandpit]

Well on 3 it's a bit of a mixed bag, much of "Smarttrack" was to be on GO Train corridors with the exception of the Eglinton spur. Then Tory and Co. quickly realized that there was no way those corridors could handle all that frequency, so the idea was floated to have some separate tracks in certain areas. The idea was never really formalized and it really just floated, but that was around the time Metrolinx came out in 2015 and said GO RER and Smarttrack were essentially the same thing.

With point 2, Tory repeated it again and again during the mayoral race that it would be separate trains from GO Trains. He drilled it into my head numerous times so i'll never forget that one.

Here is a quick primer for anyone who wants a quick catch up on what really happened with this concept from the start:

https://torontoist.com/2016/10/a-brief-history-of-smarttrack/

It never made sense for SmartTrack and GO RER to be separate projects (unless there is no fare integration), and people started to realize that. Even without fare integration they would end up cannibalizing each other.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Update from Nov Exec Committee:

Item: http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/viewAgendaItemHistory.do?item=2017.EX29.1
Report: http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2017/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-109249.pdf
(with updated station concepts)

AoD

 

[44 North]

Only did a brief skim of the Gerrard and East Harbour stations. But for the Gerrard station something stood out. A map with a note about a potential two platform streetcar stop above the RL station NE of the intersection. But farther down a note saying "determine feasibility of a future 505 streetcar extension and termination loop on the current LCBO site". That seems pretty out there and big-ish news for the legacy network. I guess there could be greater benefit in moving Dundas' eastern terminus from Broadview to this RL-RER station.

 

[mdrejhon]

1) A separate service from GO operating with
2) Separate rolling stock,

This is only partially true: SmartTrack's route is the first GO route that will receive EMUs, so it'll be somewhat distinct.

GO RER is regional rapid transit, while traditional GO is regional commuter trains. GO is transitioning from commuter to AD2W rapid transit. We're already (slowly) seeing that now with Lakeshore 30-min and UPX 15-min, both of which are only 4 years old and 2 years old respectively.

But what really distinctifies SmartTrack is the planned GO RER EMUs being used on this route first (Bramalea-Unionville), so it'd look like a distinct SmartTrack train of some kind -- heck, maybe even "SmartTrack" livery slapped on it as a political prop quid pro quo. But it's still a GO RER EMU deployment, happenstancely prioritized to the SmartTrack routing.

And looking beyond the politics -- economically, it makes sense too from a taxpayer perspective: The station density of this routing, partially forced by Crosstown interchanges and future DRL interchange, definitely merits EMUs on the SmartTrack routing first. (Dense station spacing = needs fast acceleration from stops = perfect for EMUs).

Few other GO routes other than the SmartTrack routing have such tremendous interchange potential (with subways & Crosstown), so I presently don't care about the label -- just that 15-min electrified train service happens ASAP along all routes, but I understand why this routing gets EMUs first.

Wring and shake your fist all you might, branding sheningians aside, Brampton-Unionville still makes sense to get EMUs from a network perspective (DRL/crosstown/infills), whatever label is slapped on the first arriving sets of EMUs tendered. More 15-min(and better) rapid transit routes, we need that bad.

Regardless.

Just make it happen -- GO RER livery or SmartTrack livery -- and sooner.

If they decide to do the political-points move of slapping "SmartTrack" on the EMU trainsets (this may happen if Toronto decides to funds at least part of these trains under the SmartTrack budget).

....Then it will be funny to see the SmartTrack livery train go hourly to Stoufville unplanned -- simply because of logistics: the already-proposed (Metrolinx PDF) short-turning 3 out of 4 trains at Unionville to split the 15-min and hourly EMU service.

Logistically unavoidable, but at least they can proudly announce they brought SmartTrack all the way to Stoufville. (And Aurora for that matter) And Tory saves sufficiently enough face.

3) Separated from GO Train traffic with its own tracks,

Tory might have been making that impression.
But personally, never heard of that worded that way.

But I do read lots about GO upgrading their tracks (electrification). Combined with the desired PTC/CBTC that is already proposed as part of GO RER infrastructure (RER Business Case PDF) --

That is essentially a defacto new "metro-style" track operation system for GO as it progresses from a commuter system to a regional rapid transit system. So pretty much, #3 may ring very well true, except it's GO replacing GO, maybe helped along with muncipal funding acceleration for certain elements (infill stations, priority to receive EMUs first, etc) along the SmartTrack routing.

4) With TTC fares

Good question.

By ~2025 though when it is all operating, I expect it to finally fall under "TTC fare" definition for 416 electrified GO service (and SmartTrack). Inflation-wise by 2025, inflation may force TTC fares to rise to GO levels simply by GO keeping prices fixed at today's approx $4-$5 range with (finally) free transfers to TTC. (costing about $3 in year 2017 funds, inflation-adjusted). There are many ways that fare integration will happen, until it falls under "TTC fare" definitions.

This January 1st, TTC fares just halved in price with a GO transfer, and that's a good incremental step towards 2025.

 

[micheal_can]

So, lets say Smart Track is built and I am on a station that is served by it and GO. How will I know who I am riding with?