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SmartTrack (Proposed)

mdrejhon said:
Correct. That's the only shovel-ready electrification.

Unfortunately...guess what: This is a subset of the SmartTrack route.

If you cancel UPX electrification = automatic SmartTrack delay.
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I believe that technically the first segment to get electrification will be Willowbrook to Union, as GO will be using that as their test segment, AFAIK. But yes, it's likely that Union-Bramalea will be the first RER line in operation, which of course includes UPX.
 
gweed123 said:
I believe that technically the first segment to get electrification will be Willowbrook to Union, as GO will be using that as their test segment, AFAIK. But yes, it's likely that Union-Bramalea will be the first RER line in operation, which of course includes UPX.
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Yes, first electfication for passenger service.

Merging the EAs == still a delay :(
This could easily slow RER electrification down to beyond the 2018 election!

Metrolinx is stuck with a shovel-ready electrification project that currently still only goes to Pearson, while other segments (SmartTrack/RER/etc) are still some time away from completing their studies.

I'm curious what Metrolinx will do to keep electrification rolling full speed ahead -- and I suspect the easiest political solution is roll the UPX into the overall RER/ST plan when electrifying UPX. Market the UPX electrification as a "modification to become part of RER/ST" -- e.g. slap the UPX electrification with a label "RER/SmartTrack Phase 1", Bramalea extension and west infills as "RER/SmartTrack Phase 2", Unionville as "RER/SmartTrack Phase 3", etc. Something like that, marketed to satisfy the public.
 
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mdrejhon said:
Merging the EAs == still a delay :(

This could easily slow RER electrification down to beyond the 2018 election!
Click to expand...

From what I read (I forget where, but it was posted here somewhere), the testing segment was operational in either late 2017 or early 2018. Presumably construction would be underway on the remaining parts of those lines by 2018 as well, although probably not finished by election time.
 
mdrejhon said:
Yes, first electfication for passenger service.

I'm curious what Metrolinx will do to keep electrification rolling full speed ahead -- and I suspect the easiest political solution is roll the UPX into the overall RER/ST plan when electrifying UPX. Market the UPX electrification as a "modification to become part of RER/ST" -- e.g. slap the UPX electrification with a label "RER/SmartTrack Phase 1", Bramalea extension and west infills as "RER/SmartTrack Phase 2", Unionville as "RER/SmartTrack Phase 3", etc. Something like that, marketed to satisfy the public.
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Makes sense as there are already 3 stops (not counting Pearson) and other stations can be added but at least the public can see something tangible
 
Tuck.................I actually agree with you that Smart Track and RER are essentially the same thing but with one very important difference..............ST will be run by the TTC and hence have TTC fares. This is why ST was embraced in the municipal election and RER is a viewed with indifference.

GO fares are very expensive made worse by the fact that they are non-transferable to the TTC. Tory made it clear that ST was a surface subway and will have TTC fares. For all we know Metrolinx could charge even more for RER than regular GO due to their stupid "pay for better service" mentality and I certainly wouldn't put it past them.

RER/GO could come by every 2 minutes all day but that doesn't mean people will be able to take it. Just because Queen's Park offers more trains to take doesn't mean that your landlord will reduce your rent, the bank will lower your mortgage rate, the mall is going to give you a discount, and your boss is going to give you a raise so you can take advantage of it.

Transit users are VERY price sensitive. This is why every time fares go up on the TTC there is a corresponding drop in ridership even if the increased fares mean better service. This is also why GO has lousy ridership levels in the city of Toronto itself and adding more trains at the same price won't make any difference. Tory knows this while Metrolinx still thinks people will pay any price for better service aka UPX.
 
ssiguy2, You sound like one of the entitled Torontonians, that think that 416ers have a God given right to Transit. While I admit you are right about price sensitivity, you are greatly exaggerating how much, and you are pretty biased.

Firstly, it's not Metrolinx's fault that you have to pay double fare after taking GO, it is the TTC's. Most other transit agencies in the GTA do offer subsidized transit fares to and from GO stations. It's the TTC's turn to get in line. Fare integration will help do that.

Second, it's not stupid to charge a premium for GO service. I don't know what you mean by "better service", but it's an express service. Why should a service that cuts commute times in half cost the same as a local service. Even if fare integration results in fare paid zones for all transit types, I hope GO still has a slight premium, enough to keep majority of TTC riders off of it, but small enough to still entice people to move over from TTC. It's about finding the right price point.
 
ssiguy2 said:
GO fares are very expensive made worse by the fact that they are non-transferable to the TTC. Tory made it clear that ST was a surface subway and will have TTC fares. For all we know Metrolinx could charge even more for RER than regular GO due to their stupid "pay for better service" mentality and I certainly wouldn't put it past them.
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Don't count on it having a TTC fare without premium. All the Metrolinx fare integration options attaches a premium to RER/ST service.
 
Palma said:
that will be a problem if that's the case. And for the simple reasons that sisguy2 stated above which was perfectly stated
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Why is this a debate? City staff clearly said during the last council meeting that it would be operated by GO.
 
As seen by the MetrolinxEngage Fare Integration outreach, I think the fare of the 416 portion of GO's network (RER/ST/GO/whatever and even possibly UPX) will actually eventually equalize with the fares of the TTC subway -- within 10 years(ish). The fare difference is not too huge, and there should be elimination of transfers for this.

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Source: Metrolinx

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Source: Metrolinx

This may mean TTC is slightly higher than today, and short-distance GO becomes equalized to TTC price. $3.25 (TTC, cash) and $5.02 (GO Weston-Union, Presto) are close enough that a convergence can easily occur within 10 years by sheer inflation-excuse and presto-vs-cash discount adjustment shenanigans (e.g. Metrolinx simply begins holding prices back below inflation). Could be introduced over a multi-year period. And yes, free transfers within criteria (timed, zoned, or whatever).

Alas, it also possibly means TTC isn't a single fare anymore too -- e.g. extra fare to go to Vaughan via TTC subway.

So in one sense, people are right that ST becomes TTC fare (well, at least the 416 zone), but it's just simply "TTC subway migrates partially closer to short-distance 416 commuter fare, and short-distance 416 commuter migrates partially closer to TTC subway fare"

Not saying this will happen.
But the fact is, Metrolinx is actually considering certain municipal transit trips (TTC!) equalling the price of certain Metrolinx-corridor transit trips (regardless of whether you call it RER or SmartTrack, and regardless of whether TTC or Metrolinx operates it).

Further reading: Fare Structure Concepts and Fare Integration at MetrolinxEnage.com
 
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mdrejhon said:
As seen by the MetrolinxEngage Fare Integration outreach, I think the fare of the 416 portion of GO's network will actually eventually equalize with the fares of the TTC subway -- within 10 years. The fare difference is not too huge, and there should be elimination of transfers for this.

This may mean TTC is slightly higher than today, and short-distance GO becomes equalized to TTC price. $3.25 and $5.00 are close enough that a convergence can easily occur within 10 years.

So in one sense, people are right that ST becomes TTC fare (well, at least the 416 zone), but it's just simply "TTC subway migrates closer to short-distance 416 commuter fare, and short-distance 416 commuter migrates closer to TTC subway fare"
Click to expand...

Metrolinx will have hell to pay if they force suburban riders to pay more for the subway than they already are. Another $1 added to their fares is $500 extra per year per person (assuming 2 trips per work week)). A household could pay upwards of $2000 per year for fare integration.
 
Fare integration success is far from assured.

That said, I did say 416. That's not suburban. You probably would still pay higher fares for the outer reaches, like Markham. For example, in many of these proposals, taking TTC York or taking RER(ST) from Bramalea/Unionville endpoints, could both be all in another zone altogether. But Bloor-Union and Danforth-Union would be the same as TTC fare from Rosedale-Union in many of the Metrolinx proposals. It's not as simple as "SmartTrack is TTC fare", but it could be true that "some SmartTrack/RER/GO trips" equal the price of "some TTC subway trips".

There is also major hell by many to pay if 15-min short-hop 416 urban RER isn't usable by your pass you installed on your Presto at a TTC subway station. (Fare integration is a lot of "pick your poison" on both sides too)

Those lovely interchange stations they're building, like the Eglinton West station, that give you a Yonge-Bloor experience switching from a TTC line to a GO line that are directly above each other.

And not to mention all those above-below unified-station GO-TTC interchanges that are coming to Eglinton Crosstown. Those lovely stations are going to fail to have good ridership if you don't have free transfers in that particular zone where that particular station is located in. They aren't long march hacks like the transfer at Scarborough RT or at St. George TTC. Even Crossways would be considered a Long March relative to a lot of the new enhanced GO-TTC interchanges that are coming in the next 10 years.

A lot of revenue loss will also be partially made up by the increased ridership of commuter lines that are about to provide frequencies that overlap public transit. Not all, but quite a lot.

Tough decisions need to be made, obviously (considering dealing with & recovering from the UPX situation).
 
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