Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Lebanon?

[drunknsubmrnr]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Frigates are not designed to ferry people. In fact, Canada currently has little or no ability in that area, when we deploy troops -- we are hitchhiking with the US and UK.

I've done a few short-distance troop lifts in frigates, destroyers and AOR's. For that matter, SSK's too. You'd be amazed at how many people you can cram in for a short trip.

Where did you see that in the budget?

Under "contingency". Is this a trick question?

Kevin

 

[EnviroTO]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Government can pay for many things, but when people complain about not enough money for education, health-care -- why should we reserve money for non-essential items -- that can be best handled through travel insurance.

Peacekeeping and foreign aid can be considered non-essential items too if you like. Lots of other things lend themselves to insurance too, like healthcare. This isn't a question of what "makes sense" for a government to provide and is more of a question of what "we want" our government to provide.

I'm not really sure how an insurance company would negotiate safe passage of a boat with a foreign government and how they would handle getting temporary visa waivers in countries that these people are moving though. Most insurance policies don't even cover events this severe... you would end up with something like the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina with its long debates of whether or not the damage was caused by wind or water. Maybe the fact Isreal hasn't declared war on Lebanon and isn't targetting civilians would be a reason for your "travel war evacuation insurance" to not get you out of Lebanon.

 

[cacruden]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

You are over complicating it.

The insurance company is responsible for the costs (i.e. insurance).

The Canadian government is responsible for declartion of emergency and evacuation organization (they can contract it out -- like they do with moving military equipment if they want).

If you opt out of insurance -- you will be responsible for the costs -- if not -- the insurance company covers the cost.

Insurance rates for secure democracies will be less, insurance rates for "hot-spots" will be high.

Very simple

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

And if it's an evacuation under fire? They frequently are...you'll find that most insurance companies have a "not responsible for combat damage" clause.

You might want to refer to USN actions in Vera Cruz in 1914 for descriptions of just how bad it can get when everything goes pear-shaped.

Kevin

 

[cacruden]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

"And if it's an evacuation under fire? They frequently are...you'll find that most insurance companies have a "not responsible for combat damage" clause."

That is in the property insurance contracts, but if you really wanted combat insurance -- you could probably get that at a higher rate from a specialty insurance company. I think you are stretching the arguement a little out of shape.

"You might want to refer to USN actions in Vera Cruz in 1914 for descriptions of just how bad it can get when everything goes pear-shaped."

No pear-shaped here.... this is Canada.... not the UK.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

That is in the property insurance contracts, but if you really wanted combat insurance -- you could probably get that at a higher rate from a specialty insurance company. I think you are stretching the arguement a little out of shape.

Are you aware of any insurance companies that offer "combat evacuation insurance" to civilians? The only ones I know of offer life/health insurance at an exorbitant rate.

I've trained for evacuating civilians from combat zones. Have you?

No pear-shaped here.... this is Canada.... not the UK.

Whether a situation goes pear-shaped or not has nothing to do with whether we're Canadian, American or British, it reflects local conditions.

 

[cacruden]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Are you aware of any insurance companies that offer "combat evacuation insurance" to civilians?

No, not yet, because there is no market for it (and it would be "evacuation insurance") because the government is subsidizing people making poor choices. As far as life/health insurance at an exorbant rate -- that is because the risk is high -- and combat life insurance is a small segment. If the government were to make it clear that it was not subsidizing you, and the travel industry had to remind you of that fact, then the insurance would only be associated with the risk.

i.e. over x amount of time, what is the risk of evacuation, what is the cost per person for evacuation (governments usually assess not on actual cost but on theoretical cost). What would we have to charge to break even, then what do we have to charge to make a reasonable profit (private industry). If you want to visit an unstable area -- you should not expect the government to subsidize you.


>I've trained for evacuating civilians from combat zones. Have you?

No I have not trained for evacuation -- and no I have not said the evacuation would be done by private companies. I do know fair amount about the financial industry.

As far as "No pear-shaped" -- this is not a commonly used Canadian term, but generally limited to the United Kingdom (and Australia). Not so many Canadians know that term, so the use of it is just being cryptic.

 

[roch5220]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

The pundits on fox news were questioning why there are 50K CDNs in Lebanon. Like the Lebanonese are terrorists.

Having been evacuated from an island when a hurricane had damaged 90% of the buildings, and places were beyond recognition - along with 10K other CDNs (NOT paying any taxes), people in these situations start whining an complaining about the inaction of the gov't. But this is what happened:

Considering, water and food were running out, and there is a large poor population (Majority), that had begun to start looting.

- people started calling the CDN Consular Officers in Ottawa demanding help - they said none would come
- the CDN gov't chartered planes to the island charging each person $375 US to take them to the nearest hub - Miami
- since they didn't inform anybody (other countries were forwarding anouncements to the local radio station that was broadcasting emergency info), most of the earlier planes left empty, with the last couple of planes not being able to shuttle the thousands that found out about it too late
- most CDNs, like myself, relied on the companies we worked for to evacuate us out

My take on things, if there is an emergency an CDNs have to be evacuated, if you are not a taxed 'resident', like me, - and most in Lebanon, you should be charged a reasonable fee. Whats fair is fair, if you are not paying tax, why get a free ride? Secondly, if you are a tax resident, ie. vacationers, you got caught with bad timing and you should be evacuated, free of charge. If you were in their situation, attitudes change quite quickly, and I doubt that you would have any quams about letting your taxes give you that security.

Bottom line, if you are in such a situation, don't rely on the gov't for immediate action. Try to get yourself out of it as much as possible. Even if there is a whiff of trouble brewing, get the hell out. Its your own fault when there are some warnings, and you are complacent - like I was with the hurricane warnings. When Hezzbolah kidnapped the isralies, I would have been the first one doing anything to get out of there, but thats cause I learned a lesson on ignorance.

 

[Duplicitous]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

bah, dual citizenship should preclude you from having ours. We have a Canadian in the elected parliament of Italy, his territory? NORTH AMERICA.

This stuff is wrong. Canadian citizenship is not a fallback. Pick your country, chose both? we chose to say buh-bye.

 

[cacruden]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

bah, dual citizenship should preclude you from having ours. We have a Canadian in the elected parliament of Italy, his territory? NORTH AMERICA.

This stuff is wrong. Canadian citizenship is not a fallback. Pick your country, chose both? we chose to say buh-bye.

To be quite honest, how Italy organizes it's government is really of no interest to me. For al I care, his territory could have been the Moon..... it means nothing. Basically that position is just representing ex-pats interests in the Italian parliament, not necessarily Canadian citizens.

I fully support being able to have two citizenships. The only real difference between a landed-immigrant and a citizen is that a citizen may vote. The only restriction that I would agree with is the possibility of limiting a person to one naturalized citizenship and the country of birth. I don't believe that the government should accept a birth-right citizen from renouncing citizenship (some countries require you to renounce other citizenships). A person born here should always be allowed to the country of birth. Expecting someone to have no interest in a country that they were born in or raised in -- is a little silly.

 

[Duplicitous]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

A person born here should always be allowed to the country of birth.

What people like the Khadrs, who activwly took up arms against our closest ally. Or kill or try to kill UN peacekeepers like some Serbian-Canadians have done to our fellow citizens? How far does your tolerance stretch?


Loyalty has boundaries. Just like borders.... should.

 

[cacruden]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

If the Khadrs were born in Canada, then yes, they should still have the right to return. If you don't think what the Khadrs have been involved in is acceptable, then create laws that makes it a crime to be involved in armed struggles internationally. Cover it under treason laws. Then if they return, they could be arrested (and tried). Our laws do not have to stop at Canadian borders, a.k.a laws making it illegal to participate in pediphilia internationally. This would not extend to naturalized citizens, citizenship given, can be taken away.

 

[afransen TO]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

Isn't treason still a capital offense in Canada?

 

[cacruden]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

In 1998 Canadian military law was brought into line with civilian law -- and capital punishment was abolished.

It is now life in prison (eligible for parol in 25+ years).

 

[Duplicitous]

Re: Should Canada cover cost of returning citizens from Leba

We are like lemmings awaiting the scoop bucket.

to quote Yakov Smirnoff, What a country!