ProjectEnd
Superstar
Forgive my ignorance, but do you have any more detail about this? A link perhaps?
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Shops at Don Mills (redevelopment, Giannone Petricone/Pellow + Associates )
Forgive my ignorance, but do you have any more detail about this? A link perhaps?
Mike in TO
Senior Member
The main square will feature an outdoor skating rink in the winter.
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
I agree with all that, but the author's point re: the outdoors nature of the complex was more about the business point of view... and I've heard this comment elsewhere, that lifestyle centres will fail [financially, at attracting shoppers, etc] because they are outdoors and Canada has harsh winters.
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Skeezix
Senior Member
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I understand the point, and it will be interesting to see how it plays out, but I am not sure its true. I live off the Danforth, and the street is busy with shoppers even mid-winter. Yes, on any given day weather presumably plays a bigger role with numbers of shoppers than it would with, say, the Eaton Centre, but people don't avoid outdoor shopping all winter long. Even in mid-Feb., people from outside the neighbourhood are scrambling for scarce parking on a Saturday afternoon.
People also seem content even in winter to drive to their local power centre, park half a kilometre away, and walk outdoors over to the store(s) they want to visit.
Time will tell if these are relevant examples, or if I am just comparing apples and oranges.
And, frankly, parts of Canada do have harsh winters, but Toronto does not have harsh winters. Torontonians like to complain as if they had harsh winters, and every decade or so they get more snow in a winter than they are accustomed to, but Toronto winters are pretty tolerable from a "braving the elements" perspective.
Northern Light
Superstar
Project Info:
This link is to the request for direction report City Staff wrote back in 2006.
You can see there that they are not impressed by all the Don Mills Parking.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2006/agendas/committees/ny/ny060509/it044.pdf
For the reference to circulation (road system); I think you'd have to look at the separate application for the Condos, or one of the early reports.
I don't have the link for that handy.
But the Official Plan specifically states that private circulation systems, particularly on residential sites are a no-no.
The problem arises from the fact that police don't have the right to patrol; that if a landlord or condo corp. fails to address garbage issues, that the City has no ability to do pick-up, etc. etc.
As well as the long-standing issue of public space should be policed by private security.
Of this proposal (in its various incarnations, which date back to 2001)
I recall the request was to take the informal 'road' that now traverses the site east-west and make it public, then subdive with public roads through any new condos at the south end of the site.
But Cadillac found the idea disagreeable.
This link is to the request for direction report City Staff wrote back in 2006.
You can see there that they are not impressed by all the Don Mills Parking.
http://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/2006/agendas/committees/ny/ny060509/it044.pdf
For the reference to circulation (road system); I think you'd have to look at the separate application for the Condos, or one of the early reports.
I don't have the link for that handy.
But the Official Plan specifically states that private circulation systems, particularly on residential sites are a no-no.
The problem arises from the fact that police don't have the right to patrol; that if a landlord or condo corp. fails to address garbage issues, that the City has no ability to do pick-up, etc. etc.
As well as the long-standing issue of public space should be policed by private security.
Of this proposal (in its various incarnations, which date back to 2001)
I recall the request was to take the informal 'road' that now traverses the site east-west and make it public, then subdive with public roads through any new condos at the south end of the site.
But Cadillac found the idea disagreeable.
ProjectEnd
Superstar
Thanks for the info Northern Light.
In a similar vein, this is an excellent (if a little outdated) article which critiques the pseudo-urban idioms which Shops at Don Mills adheres to.
Jane-Washing.
In a similar vein, this is an excellent (if a little outdated) article which critiques the pseudo-urban idioms which Shops at Don Mills adheres to.
Jane-Washing.
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Art Vandelay
Active Member
Obviously Cadillac believes believes their property will be worth less should the city of Toronto be responsible for the maintenance of the "public" infrastructure. They're probably right.
Why else wouldn't Cadillac want to download those costs until the taxpayer?
Keeping the land also allows them to go back to a covered mall should this not work.
androiduk
Senior Member
This is the first real attempt at something like this in Toronto and as such, there are many things to learn. I'm sure if this experiment is even moderately successful, Cadillac Fairview and other shopping centre owners will duplicate it elsewhere in the city. It's definitely a step in the right direction. I was there last week and it definitely has a nice feel to it. In reasonable weather, I'd much prefer this than being inside a mall.
Art Vandelay
Active Member
Good point. I am looking forward to seeing this project in person. The pictures look great. Still I have some doubts if it will be as successful as planned. This isn't southern California. It gets extremely cold in the winter and hot in the summer and wet as we transition from one extreme to the other.
I think these types of projects would be more successful in our climate if office space and living space were above store fronts and not in parking lots. That way there would be a captive market.
As designed now we simply have a mall without a roof. Why drive here to shop when you could go elsewhere and enjoy climate controlled comfort.
MBS-Guru
Active Member
Hi Art, my name is Bob Saccamano. I agree that outdoor malls are sucussful in Cali and Arizona but not in Toronto. Go to downtown Toronto during the winter months and you'll barely see a soul walking outside. I like the concept and the stores they have there but when the weather turns cold, people will just go to the closest indoor mall than walk outside.
adma
Superstar
Methinks that Marc Weisblott's thrust is a little more total-overview irreverent and less Naomi Klein-ish than you're portraying it as being...
Torontovibe
Senior Member
I also prefer this to a mall. I'd build the condos right on top of the stores too. As well as build it right out to the street. They did a decent job but it could have been a lot better. The clock tower didn't work for me either. It could have used at least one enclosed public area/building, for rainy or cold days, maybe something with a small food court or enclosed courtyard. I'm sure it will be better once it's all finished.
Dan416
Senior Member
Let's start the countdown till this outdoor mall is mall-ized.
SunriseChampion
Senior Member
I keep driving by this place on my way to and from various job sites around the city and can't help getting the feeling that it's just another suburban big box developmental scam. It feels cut off from the streets and the rest of the neighbourhood.
Disclaimers now: I haven't ventured into the patchwork of shops yet and I went to elementary school at Leslie (St Bonaventure) for four years so I'm quite used to the mall which may make me feel like it's still kind of there.
I'm not quite impressed...perhaps I shall be once I venture into the development but I hate malls and I hate big box commercial and this seems like a hybrid which makes it twice as bad, I suppose.
Ah well, at least the LCBO is wonderfully accessible.
(Perhaps because you have to be krunk to fully appreciate the designers' and developers' vision?)
Disclaimers now: I haven't ventured into the patchwork of shops yet and I went to elementary school at Leslie (St Bonaventure) for four years so I'm quite used to the mall which may make me feel like it's still kind of there.
I'm not quite impressed...perhaps I shall be once I venture into the development but I hate malls and I hate big box commercial and this seems like a hybrid which makes it twice as bad, I suppose.
Ah well, at least the LCBO is wonderfully accessible.
(Perhaps because you have to be krunk to fully appreciate the designers' and developers' vision?)