innsertnamehere
Superstar
A reminder that Ford is apparently nominally planning a transit line along the 401 as a part of the 401 highway tunnel. What that looks like, and the chances of it happening..
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
mikey7767
New Member
Chances are not very high. Still very possible, but unlikely. It would cost more than a hundred billion.
junctionist
Senior Member
I hate freeway-based rapid transit lines. Freeways are usually the least pedestrian friendly areas with a surrounding built form that’s almost never transit friendly. Ridership will never be that high, and the lines won’t urbanize the surrounding areas.
Witness the ridership, density, and development that has occurred around the 1978 Spadina line extension in the middle of the Allen versus the phenomenal evolution of the area around the Yonge Street subway. The difference is night and day from a city-building perspective.
Perhaps the 401 rapid transit line could still be justified as a fast regional trunk line, but only with seamless connections to intersecting bus routes (e.g. without leaving the station) and fare integration. You don’t need to build a tunnel, though; the land is already there. It’s just dedicated to cars. The transit infrastructure is just meant to sanitize the ridiculousness of the tunnel from a cost-benefit perspective.
Witness the ridership, density, and development that has occurred around the 1978 Spadina line extension in the middle of the Allen versus the phenomenal evolution of the area around the Yonge Street subway. The difference is night and day from a city-building perspective.
Perhaps the 401 rapid transit line could still be justified as a fast regional trunk line, but only with seamless connections to intersecting bus routes (e.g. without leaving the station) and fare integration. You don’t need to build a tunnel, though; the land is already there. It’s just dedicated to cars. The transit infrastructure is just meant to sanitize the ridiculousness of the tunnel from a cost-benefit perspective.
Obsidian
Active Member
But this is due to zoning not the transit. the same can be said for the bloor line. if the city allows density anywhere int he city it will be filled by developers.
If the city wants to densify allow the Allen it will happen if they change the zoning for the area.
T-Bor
Active Member
The Allen is 6 lanes - the 401 is 16. Plus longer on/off ramps, etc.
junctionist
Senior Member
Having transit in the middle of the highway plays a big part in terms of the lackluster feel of the area. It's not just zoning and development. Pedestrians aren't drawn to areas like most of what surrounds the Allen.
There are many parts of Bloor with few towers due to zoning like the Annex west of Spadina, Koreatown, and Bloor West Village. They're still more walkable and vibrant (with thriving mixed-use areas) than the areas around the Allen for the most part.
It makes little difference that there are apartment towers near Glencairn. Pedestrians prefer to go to places like the Annex, Koreatown, and Bloor West Village than areas built around a highway.
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6ixGod
Active Member
Obsidian
Active Member
you were complaining about density and development around the Allen, not urbanism.
Density and development is all due to zoning and has virtually nothing to do with transit.
If the city allow development in any part of the city, it will get done by developers regardless of the transit situation.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Modern urbanist thinking may, in some cases, be at odds with the interests of actual transit users.
First of all, although the presense of a highway is a negative for pedestrian appeal, it is not always a deciding factor. Distillery District is pretty walkable and busy, yet it is located right next to the Gardiner and the busy rail corridor. Yorkdale Mall is essentially a large roofed pedestrian area, yet it is located right next to 2 highways.
More importantly: the main goal of building transit is not to make a certain small area walkable / vibrant / pedestrian friendly. The main goal is to carry people, residing in a much larger area, around the city.
In that view: rejecting any transit line construction in a highway median would be short-sighted.
Case in point: Allen Road. Yes, it would be better if, instead of running the subway there, they cut it diagonnaly a bit further to reach Dufferin, and then continue up Dufferin. The street would densify, and there would be fewer problems with the Dufferin bus, which is currently overloaded.
But, that kind of construction would be more expensive, too. What if they said "Well, an Allen Road subway is a nonstarter, and we can't afford a subway tunnel under Dufferin. Let's not bother, one north-south subway line (Yonge) is enough." How well would the Yonge line fare today, without a partial relief provided by the other branch.
First of all, although the presense of a highway is a negative for pedestrian appeal, it is not always a deciding factor. Distillery District is pretty walkable and busy, yet it is located right next to the Gardiner and the busy rail corridor. Yorkdale Mall is essentially a large roofed pedestrian area, yet it is located right next to 2 highways.
More importantly: the main goal of building transit is not to make a certain small area walkable / vibrant / pedestrian friendly. The main goal is to carry people, residing in a much larger area, around the city.
In that view: rejecting any transit line construction in a highway median would be short-sighted.
Case in point: Allen Road. Yes, it would be better if, instead of running the subway there, they cut it diagonnaly a bit further to reach Dufferin, and then continue up Dufferin. The street would densify, and there would be fewer problems with the Dufferin bus, which is currently overloaded.
But, that kind of construction would be more expensive, too. What if they said "Well, an Allen Road subway is a nonstarter, and we can't afford a subway tunnel under Dufferin. Let's not bother, one north-south subway line (Yonge) is enough." How well would the Yonge line fare today, without a partial relief provided by the other branch.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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I think this will be better than Finch. but only because it's (Mostly) underground.
81-717
Active Member
As long as they don't build it as another glorified tram...
Northern Light
Superstar
This is not accurate.
Yes, upzoning can help smooth the path to development, but no it does not automatically create it. For a host of reasons. First and foremost, there needs to be a market that will pay for the product you're willing and able to deliver.
This is what stifled much of the office space that was zoned for in North York City Centre and Scarborough, there was no one to lease it to at a rate that would be profitable.
Yes, residential development does occur away from mass transit; but typically, its built adjacent to a major destination, or if not transit, then a highway, as the development then offers ample parking and connects drivers with their preferred method of getting around.
You don't see that much 'random' density, though admittedly the odd builder has taken a gamble over the years.
*****
Transit absolutely can be a key factor in residential development and higher density, this is in part why you've seen intensification in Toronto concentrated in downtown, mostly near the subways, and Union Station, as well as transit nodes at Yonge/Eglinton, North York Centre, along Line 2, and Line 4.
Certainly, zoning is also key to that happening, but it has to be said, the vast majority of the development you've seen go up the last decades was not originally zoned for and was the subject of a rezoning application if not an Official Plan Amendment.
So demand/market can clearly be a leading driver to compel rezoning.
****
Now urban form, of the type many value in the older City is not expressly a function of transit (though it helps) nor it is expressly a function of zoning, its a function of developers and architects who could build retail right, mostly in much earlier decades, and urban design guidelines, in some measure, for more successful contemporary examples; though truthfully the best stuff has been builder-led except where heritage facade preservation has been a key factor.
Northern Light
Superstar
Distillery is a unique destination with buildings upwards of two centuries old in its collection and cobblestone streets. The core buildings 'The draw' pre-date the Gardiner by a century.
Sorry, Yorkdale Mall is surrounded by street parking, and nothwithstanding having an adjacent subway station and a major bus route the majority of patrons arrive by car.
If Yorkdale Mall is a pedestrian area, then so is very mall.
Gotta pass on that.
This is true. But, generating high uptake of transit does involve, in part, making stations places you can walk to or from; that means, in part, creating an urban environment around them that isn't hostile.
Rapid Transit in a highway median, while between stations, is no more an issue than being in a tunnel.
The problem is not the ROW; the problem is the location of stations.
Provided there is a material distance between stations ~2km on average, you can logically design a line that is ~75% in highway ROW and then veers off, likely in a tunnel, so that the stations are just outside the ROW and meet the street in a more urban-friendly way, then loop back out the highway.
Its a trade-off, as looping out a bit, adds some journey time, and material costs, but it does improve return-on-investment.
You can achieve a similar effect by decking over a highway just where a major road with station is located, to a depth of about 100M.
You can then line the deck with modest mid-rise with retail and make it less inhospitable. This is also quite costly, but not necessarily much worse than tunnelling to/from out-of-ROW stations.
The challenge w/this is that those buildings on an overpass can't have any parking and loading/waste must be done at-grade; also highway over passes tend to have extra lanes for cars and its just very tough to design them to be less than six and maybe eight lanes across, which is very challenging to mitigate.
The Allen, lets remember, was initially approved as the Spadina Expressway and would have come all the way into downtown. A dumb idea that would have gutted a large section of the core and obliterated Cedarvale Ravine, which was severely damaged by the project just the same as the creek was buried in anticipation of the highway.
Had the province not spent what it did buying the land for and developing the Allen, there would have been ample money to build it under Dufferin.
But that's revisionist history, so lets not try to provide alternate realities.
Northern Light
Superstar
To sum up / reply collectively to the posts above.
The Sheppard Subway will not be in the 401 ROW, for reasons I've been over a bunch of times.
Transit in the 401 ROW is possible, but it won't be for Line 4, if it happens.
Line 4 is going on Sheppard, that's it.
The Sheppard Subway will not be in the 401 ROW, for reasons I've been over a bunch of times.
Transit in the 401 ROW is possible, but it won't be for Line 4, if it happens.
Line 4 is going on Sheppard, that's it.
ARG1
Senior Member
I guess its worth noting that this is precisely the direction that Seattle took with many of its LINK extensions.