sixrings
Senior Member
Well take it from someone who lived longer in proximity and closer… STC is definitively not a thing.
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Sheppard Line 4 Subway Extension (Proposed)
- Thread starter denfromoakvillemilton
- Start date
mossynukes
Active Member
The current City Council has expressed their full fledged support for the EELRT on numerous occasions. I could not even recall a mayoral candidate or city councillor that has expressed their dissaproval for the 4.6 billion dollar "slower than a bus" streetcar, You can enlighten me if you'd like.
mossynukes
Active Member
I want to clarify, I am not arguing that no one wants LRT, neither am I arguing that LRTs are inherently bad. I am specifcially talking about the proposed and partially funded EELRT, from Sheppard/McCowan to Kennedy Station.
sixrings
Senior Member
It won’t be slower than the bus during rush hour when the city is in gridlock. That’s the time that matters the most when we’re talking transit times.
canarob
Senior Member
From an employment perspective, Option 3 makes a lot of sense. Lots of warehouse-type employment is being added along Markham Road up to Steeles, so the Markham Road bus would be far more convenient. 2A would also be fine. Those working at STC would still be very well served without a direct connection from the west. Going out to Morningside also would make the Eglinton East LRT connections to UTSC and Malvern Centre very easy.
From a regional perspective (yes, I'm biased here), Option 3 or 2A would also be amazing for connecting the YRT/TTC routes along McCowan and Markham roads. Also, a lot of the express services YRT runs from East Markham (Cornell Terminal, etc.) that currently go to Finch could be rerouted to Sheppard and McCowan/Markham. This is especially true for McCowan where bus lanes have been contemplated from Sheppard to Highway 7. Ending Line 4 at STC would remove much of the benefits for NE Scarborough and SE Markham.
From a regional perspective (yes, I'm biased here), Option 3 or 2A would also be amazing for connecting the YRT/TTC routes along McCowan and Markham roads. Also, a lot of the express services YRT runs from East Markham (Cornell Terminal, etc.) that currently go to Finch could be rerouted to Sheppard and McCowan/Markham. This is especially true for McCowan where bus lanes have been contemplated from Sheppard to Highway 7. Ending Line 4 at STC would remove much of the benefits for NE Scarborough and SE Markham.
T3G
Senior Member
One standalone LRT line with dubious chances for getting built, supported by a cash strapped city that may not even have the resources to build it is hardly comparable to a gigantic entity like Metrolinx pushing subways everywhere, don't you think?
When the discussion is about supporting LRT over subways, where are the politicians showing their support for extending Sheppard or North Yonge as an LRT? There is no proposed subway alternative to EELRT, so that doesn't count.
Also, source on the "slower than a bus" claim? Considering we have no LRT lines currently in operation in the city, this sounds again like cheap politicking. How on God's earth can an LRT in its own lane be slower than a bus that runs in mixed traffic? The very idea defies logic.
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GenerationW
Senior Member
Sheppard West to Morningside, no dip down to STC. Go big or.........nothing else, just go big.
mossynukes
Active Member
What on earth are you rambling about? Why do you feel the need to shift this discussion to subways as a whole vs lrt as a whole. This is specifically about the EELRT and it always has been. Please Read this initial message below and my initial response below because it seems you need to refresh your memory on what we are discussing.
I hope the bolding may help you realize the context of these messages
It is not, it is about suppporting the EELRT. You are introducing this subway vs LRT aspect that is foreign to the original comments.
I believe it is found here https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2022/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-226595.pdf
Because the buses have their own dedicated lanes. Are you aware of the current situation on the eglinton east/morningside corridor?
nfitz
Superstar
The Line 2 platforms are under McCowan and the east-site of McCowan, centred around Progress..
Why the entrance to the station is on the southeast corner, with no connection to the west side (or northeast corner) is beyond me. There is however a west-side knock-out panel in the centre of the station on the floor above the platforms to the "Oxford Development" on the southwest corner of Progress and McCowan.
The south end of the Line 2 platform is just south of the southern property line of Triton Road and just north of the existing SRT corridor (and McCowan station). The station box itself would extend further (though I haven't seen a final plan).
Putting a Line 4 station on top of the existing SRT could provide connection to Line 2 - especially if Line 4 was elevated. Alternatively you could put an elevated station or a very deep station at the Progress/McCowan intersection, angled from northwest to southeast. Either is going to be very messy, given that the Line 2 station is not designed for an interchange.
Either way extending either line to the east (or southeast) hits the eastern end of the SRT corridor, which already extends much of the way to Bellamy.
The tail end of the existing SRT is built on the old Canadian Northern railway corridor. It keeps going straight past Bellamy and then to Markham Road, right at the 401 interchange, to Progress/Milner. From there you can see the long extent of grass all the way to near McLevin and Tapscott and Malvern Town Centre.
The planned SRT extension was pretty much going to follow this, though to cross Markham and the 401, it was going to turn right near Progress, past Centennial, and then up to Milner joining the old corridor again there. An elevated Line 4 could do the same (it could even simply run over Progress all the way from McCowan to Milner, over Markham.
Oh, certainly for the next few decades. The question is what will the Sheppard East LRT look like if they do run Line 4 to Scarborough Centre. Extend to Agincourt? Build an additional couple of Line 4 stations at Centennial and near Progress/Sheppard? Then that could be the terminus of Line 4.
In the far future, extending Line 4 from Malvern Centre to UTS doesn't preclude having the (then existing) Sheppard LRT. From Malvern Centre, you'd have to run underground - probably to the LRT stop at Morningside/Sheppard with the next stop at UTS (perhaps with an option of terminating at Rouge Hill GO). Yeah, there'd be a small overlap with the LRT along Morningside.
But I don't see Line 4 extending east of McCowan - or perhaps Markham - for many decades, perhaps next century.
Personally, I think that simply keeping Line 4 on Sheppard to McCowan is the best option, because of how difficult the transfer is going to be at Scarborough Centre. Sheppard East station is already designed for an underground Line 4 connection. There's also connections to a partially trenched Sheppard East LRT, and a well-connected up to 19-bay bus station.
Rainforest
Senior Member
In theory it can, if the operational rules are twisted that way. If one sets a lower limit on LRT speed compared to the street / bus speed, plus requires it to stop-and-proceed at every switch / crossover, etc.
I am not saying that will happen. In fact I hope the common sense prevails and the LRT runs somewhat faster than the bus it replaces.
Can't wait for the Finch line to open, it will be a great opportunity to test the theories - and perhaps improve the operational practices if the Day 1 performance disappoints.
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micheal_can
Senior Member
Aplus23
Active Member
He's right as a Scarborough resident. A lot of the Express busses would only start or end at STC, so anyone east of STC wouldn't get express service. I specifically remember leaving Fairview mall and having to decide do I take the 85 or the 85Express to STC in order to get to morningside. I would take whichever one came first.
sixrings
Senior Member
It sounded like you were defining a thing as a positive place. You can correct me if I’m wrong. If you were defining a thing as something that exists that’s totally different. In the case of does STC exist the answer is yes.
sixrings
Senior Member
I resented Scarborough town centre bus system so much my friends and I actively did our best to go to Fairview mall instead.
A Torontonian Now
Senior Member
Assuming 2a or 2b were chosen, I have a novel thought on how Sheppard West should be handled.
I would have the Sheppard subway connect with the subway to Vaughan, but not as an interline, but to annex that stretch of Line 1 to become part of Line 4. You would have a Vaughan Centre to Scarborough (STC or McCowan) subway, and a Sheppard West to Union to Finch (ultimately Richmond Hill) subway.
This would create a one-stop ride across the north of the city, and the western leg of Line 1 would serve a relief function for the Yonge line. People from Vaughan (or as importantly importantly, York U) would in many ways have greater convenience because they would have no shortage of transfer points to get south, at Barrie Go line, Sheppard West, Yonge, Oriole, etc. depending on where they were heading.
I would have the Sheppard subway connect with the subway to Vaughan, but not as an interline, but to annex that stretch of Line 1 to become part of Line 4. You would have a Vaughan Centre to Scarborough (STC or McCowan) subway, and a Sheppard West to Union to Finch (ultimately Richmond Hill) subway.
This would create a one-stop ride across the north of the city, and the western leg of Line 1 would serve a relief function for the Yonge line. People from Vaughan (or as importantly importantly, York U) would in many ways have greater convenience because they would have no shortage of transfer points to get south, at Barrie Go line, Sheppard West, Yonge, Oriole, etc. depending on where they were heading.