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Shabby Toronto

I blame the city for that 100%.

Really we don't put an effort to make the nicest parts of the city look much better. We should spoil these areas like NY and Chicago does...
 
What 'gauche' defense? We're just pointing out that every city has areas of shabbiness and messy urbanism - unless it's Dubai, I guess. In typical Toronto fashion we try to compare our worst to everyone else's best - then get depressed when we don't measure up. Big surprise!

but that's not Mystic's point. Of course there is shabbiness in all cities, but take a walk along Dundas West in front of the AGO, or Yonge Street north or south of Dundas Square, or along any other major 'central' thoroughfare...even Bloor Street... and you will see pervasive shabbiness, including ugly hydro poles, broken sidewalks, asphalt patches, gum stains, dead trees, and so on... Shabbiness only passes for a messy urbanism when it is as a counter-balance to over-gentrification, imo, otherwise it just feels like a mess.

...but as an exercise in response to your allegation, what would be comparing Toronto's 'best' to another city's 'best' then?
 
I think that most reasonable people would agree that Toronto cleaning up its sidewalks/light standards/street pavement/etc/etc would be a good thing.....
 
but that's not Mystic's point. Of course there is shabbiness in all cities, but take a walk along Dundas West in front of the AGO, or Yonge Street north or south of Dundas Square, or along any other major 'central' thoroughfare...even Bloor Street... and you will see pervasive shabbiness, including ugly hydro poles, broken sidewalks, asphalt patches, gum stains, dead trees, and so on... Shabbiness only passes for a messy urbanism when it is as a counter-balance to over-gentrification, imo, otherwise it just feels like a mess.

I don't understand "pervasive shabbiness", you guys make it sound like Calcutta out there. I travel along the major thoroughfares all the time. It looks shabby when I'm in a shabby area, but otherwise it looks pretty par for the course internationally. I guess when I think "shabby" I think crumbling buildings, abandoned warehouses, houses with garbage in their yard, and gutted cars on the streets.

It seems rather prim of us to abhor Hydro poles, gum stains, and cracked sidewalks.

...but as an exercise in response to your allegation, what would be comparing Toronto's 'best' to another city's 'best' then?

Comparing Toronto to central Manhattan (which, if you've ever been to NYC, you'll realize is exactly what's happening)
 
Ah, but only dumb tourists who don't know their way around NYC would be so stupid as to venture outside elite business and residential enclaves. Smart tourists know well enough to stick within safe, well-trod territory.

Of course, smart tourists is de dumbest tourists...;)

I walked throughout Harlem, Upper West and Upper East Side, Lower East Side, Greenwich Village, Downtown, Midtown. I covered a large portion of Manhattan.

Manhattan as a whole is pretty clean. And hardly any homeless people were to be found.
 
Mystery White Boy, I lived in New York for a period of time in a part of town that would hardly be considered upscale (Bushwick, Brooklyn), and I completely agree with you. Most of Toronto is much more dumpy and shabby than New York. There is arguably more trash and dog shit on the sidewalks of New York but this is improving very quickly, especially in the parks which are the jewel of New York's public infrastructure, sort of like what libraries are in Toronto (or, sadly, what the TTC used to be until 20 years ago).

Really, trash doesn't contribute to shabbiness as much as the general state of the infrastructure and the amount of aesthetic consideration that goes into simple things like light standards, benches, garbage receptacles and utility poles. In this regard, Toronto is pretty much the worst city I've ever seen in the developed world. Our roads and sidewalks are mostly cracked and broken and the patchwork paving that is used to cover construction or just to repair ruts and potholes is unacceptably sloppy. Some street corners have four utility poles on them; all but one are unnecessary and usually defunct. Work crews usually spray paint cryptic markings on the road in the summertime and then don't remove them when they're done. I saw a photo that looked straight down onto an intersection, and the dozens of markings made it look like the blackboard in a differential equations class.
 
I think that most reasonable people would agree that Toronto cleaning up its sidewalks/light standards/street pavement/etc/etc would be a good thing.....

Definitely, so there would be less of this:


It's not just all the wires and wooden poles, but the style of street lighting is not very attractive. When this second rate style is used, it's typically inconsistent with another ugly style mixed in, as seen in the background.

This style looks so much better and should be the standard in my opinion:
 
Do you think weather might have something to do with it? Other cities that people are comparing Toronto to do not have long winters, maybe NewYork but not really. The wear and tear caused by winter in Toronto can be linked to many of the problems people have pointed out. (i.e. thawing and freezing can encourage crack growth on roadways and sidewalks etc.) In addition the constant scraping of snowplows can lead to deterioration of road curbs, landscaping, streetscapes, etc. This is just one reason, In regards to utility post and others, well thats another issue.
 
Definitely, so there would be less of this:


It's not just all the wires and wooden poles, but the style of street lighting is not very attractive. When this second rate style is used, it's typically inconsistent with another ugly style mixed in, as seen in the background.

This style looks so much better and should be the standard in my opinion:

The lights in the 2nd picture are pretty elegant. It's the poles that are the problem.
 
Sorry to ask, as I'm sure this has been discussed before. But does anyone know why we still have all those old electric poles and wiring? Has there ever been serious discussion at City Hall on removing any of it?
 
I moved here 8 years ago from Alberta and I definitely had to get used to the messiness. I was surprised and how run-down even the prime areas are, like Bay Street a few steps south of Bloor, and most of Queen West including Queen and Spadina.

And the shabbiness goes beyond badly-patched sidewalks and run-down subways. There are surprisingly many empty or under-used buildings in prime areas, to say nothing of tacky and inappropriate new developments.

But Calgary, which is one of the cleanest cities I've ever seen, is also very boring. I could say the same for nearly all of the most photogenic cities I've visited - Chicago is spectacular, but surprisingly sparse. Toronto, in my opinion, makes up for its shabbiness with vitality. Perhaps a cause or consequence of the shabiness is that it's possible for people from all economic levels to live in or near any neighborhood in the city.
 
imo I have seen how new development and how just fixing infrastructure can do wonders to spruce up a neighborhood. I remember when they fixed the sidewalk on Yonge north of Dundas, it was a huge improvement. Were to concentrated at the huge things like the Olympics and such. I think general improvements will be a much better choice.

Still, imo the city has not become shabby today or recently, It has been for a long time...
 
That photo at College and Bathurst illustrates the completely ruinous effect out-of-control nightclub and other postering has on the look of the city. Postering, on that scale, by definition cheapens and degrades the city by commercializing it to a ridiculous degree. I think this culture is so ingrained now that, whereas in the downtown it's slapping up ads on poles and other street furniture, I've noticed in parts of Scarborough and North York that there are now many bus shelters that are wallpapered in ads for driving schools and other businesses such that you literally cannot see out them anymore. It's analogous to piles of junk mail and spam slapped up onto street furniture, and is a perfect illustration of what I said earlier, that this city has absolutely no pride, no restraint, no interest in maintaining a public realm that, even if slightly shopworn, at least isn't further assaulted by endless and opportunistic commercialism. It sucks away any dignity that the already-shabby look of the city south of Bloor has, and in my opinion is one the chief reasons, if not *the* chief reason, why the city looks as bad as it does. I'm almost certain that many of the metal poles that are rusted out haven't been painted over or replaced because I can see someone in the city bureaucracy saying, why bother when as soon as we do it, the "think in spanish" people or some nightclub or an essay mill is going to plaster them with ads the second the paint dries or the pole is replaced. I can't blame the city for that, but it doesn't make it right. It only reflects upon the timidity and cowardice of the city to tackle this problem.

I've seen archival photos of similar stretches of Queen, Bloor, King, etc. from 30-40 years ago (even 15) that have pretty much the same street furniture they have now with regards to poles and light standards (the poles along that stretch of College, for example, are in some cases fifty years old), and things look, at a minimum, more dignified and clutter-free, if not exactly cutting edge. But add thousands upon thousands of obnoxious, ratty, peeling and fading ads slapped up everywhere, and what was shopworn, if tidy, descends into utter squalor and neglect.

But again, this seems to be what so many people in this city want. And I think this is so ingrained now that yes, we can have a new AGO built upon a streetscape of tired, postered-over, rusted-out, scratched-out light poles and street furniture whose function seems to be chiefly as a place to put up ads for nightclubs, language schools, essay mills, etc and no one bats an eye, really, because we're so inured to seeing these ads glued up everywhere that I don't think many people living in this city now remember a time when you didn't see an ad put up somewhere every few feet. The shock of seeing old pictures without these ads everywhere is like watching a hockey game circa 1980, when the boards and ice surfaces were clean and free of sales pitches. It's depressing, but what can you do? Gotta protect "public space", right? *sarcasm level: high*

I don't know of any other city that allows this rampant, relentless and gratuitous advertising to happen unchecked across such a wide swath of its core areas, financial and cultural. I have *never* seen this anywhere else, and it's an embarrassment and a disgrace and I have no idea why this city tolerates it. (I have distinct memories of walking around NYU, which bleeds into the city the same way U of T does, and not seeing a *single* ad taped or glued up anywhere, and thinking how much more dignified and worth of respect the campus is in comparison to what the area around U of T looks like, which is wallpapered in junk and spam, which makes the dignified architecture of the campus that much more...I don't know, sad in some way, certainly diminished in comparison). So what other conclusion *can* I draw other than the people who run this city, and a large chunk of the people who live in it (at least downtown), just don't give a shit? I think now it seems that Toronto is now in a permanent state of half-assedness, with some attractive buildings here and there operating as tiny islands of dignity and aesthetic aspiration in a sea of messy clutter and spam. So add this to an already pervasive air of neglect and there you are. I've given up on the city doing any better, and so this thread, unfortunately, is just so much farting in the wind.
 
But Calgary, which is one of the cleanest cities I've ever seen, is also very boring. I could say the same for nearly all of the most photogenic cities I've visited - Chicago is spectacular, but surprisingly sparse. Toronto, in my opinion, makes up for its shabbiness with vitality. Perhaps a cause or consequence of the shabiness is that it's possible for people from all economic levels to live in or near any neighborhood in the city.

I disagree, European cities pull this off easily...

It is rather simple, the city clearly does not have enough people cleaning the streets and the people who are not doing a good job.


Nonetheless if Toronto had a more moderate climate, I do however think the city would look many times better then today. The city in the summer still has the grit but it is very green and its very vibrant.
 
That photo at College and Bathurst illustrates the completely ruinous effect out-of-control nightclub and other postering has on the look of the city. Postering, on that scale, by definition cheapens and degrades the city by commercializing it to a ridiculous degree. I think this culture is so ingrained now that, whereas in the downtown it's slapping up ads on poles and other street furniture, I've noticed in parts of Scarborough and North York that there are now many bus shelters that are wallpapered in ads for driving schools and other businesses such that you literally cannot see out them anymore. It's analogous to piles of junk mail and spam slapped up onto street furniture, and is a perfect illustration of what I said earlier, that this city has absolutely no pride, no restraint, no interest in maintaining a public realm that, even if slightly shopworn, at least isn't further assaulted by endless and opportunistic commercialism.

I've seen archival photos of similar stretches of Queen, Bloor, King, etc. from 30-40 years ago (even 15) that have pretty much the same street furniture they have now with regards to poles and light standards (the poles along that stretch of College, for example, are in some cases fifty years old), and things look, at a minimum, more dignified and clutter-free, if not exactly cutting edge. But add thousands upon thousands of obnoxious, ratty, peeling and fading ads slapped up everywhere, and what was shopworn, if tidy, descends into utter squalor and neglect.


Excellent post.

It is strange that there exists a kind of ho-hum acceptance of the degradation of the public realm. I find it odd that there is a high focus (sometimes warranted) on the design of new towers, but all too often this is delivered with little clear expression of interest on the sidewalks, roads and other surface level elements. This is the part of the city that we experience every day, and it is looking pretty shabby these days.

Some of the lighting fixtures on College look like the ones found in Montreal - in the 1960's.
 

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