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Seven ways to make Toronto a world-class city again

AlvinofDiaspar said:
It's cute as a comparison, but not very useful given the differences in urban context - also their Metro is probably playing the role of our (badly overloaded) streetcar network.

AoD
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And comparisons like these tend to include the RER network on other cities but ignore GO on the Toronto map, so it's not a fair comparison (notwithstanding this map where there is no Toronto transit shown).

Surprised that the 20 Arr. pretty much fit inside old Toronto. Assumed it was larger.
 
AlvinofDiaspar said:
It's cute as a comparison, but not very useful given the differences in urban context - also their Metro is probably playing the role of our (badly overloaded) streetcar network.

AoD
Click to expand...

I was just going to say that there are any number of reasons why comparing Paris and Toronto is misguided: Paris started building transit earlier, it's denser, etc. Having started building transit much earlier, they already went through a phase of getting rid of streetcars and building out the subway network so much that now light rail is being used to fill the gaps that are underserved by the metro.
 
the lemur said:
I was just going to say that there are any number of reasons why comparing Paris and Toronto is misguided: Paris started building transit earlier, it's denser, etc. Having started building transit much earlier, they already went through a phase of getting rid of streetcars and building out the subway network so much that now light rail is being used to fill the gaps that are underserved by the metro.
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That's not to say that we aren't at the point where we should be looking at replacing streetcar service along some of the corridors with subway - they are saturated for a reason, and it will only become more so as the core/shoulder areas develop further. This is not a "war" against the streetcars - it is a reality that demand is beginning to outstrip the mode.

AoD
 
Paris subway layout could also be because it has to by-pass a number of underground obstacles like the catacombs, historic sites, and sewers that can't be rerouted, and probably for other reasons that we can't think of.

You also have to remember that Paris in the late 19th century went through an massive tear down and rebuild of large neighbourhoods that lasted until the late 1920's. Resulting it's iconic wider avenues, parks and fountains.
 
CodeMonkey said:
Paris subway layout could also be because it has to by-pass a number of underground obstacles like the catacombs, historic sites, and sewers that can't be rerouted, and probably for other reasons that we can't think of.

You also have to remember that Paris in the late 19th century went through an massive tear down and rebuild of large neighbourhoods that lasted until the late 1920's. Resulting it's iconic wider avenues, parks and fountains.
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Yes. Paris used have six or seven hills around it - they were all blown up but one: Montmartre.
 
WislaHD said:
Just a point of comparison:
Paris subway system imposed on Toronto map.

11742867_10155870201450473_3858045010169334889_n.jpg


Note the complete lack of subways in the suburbs? Paris doesn't handle their suburbs with inefficient subways. They convert to regional rail.

(may be wrong thread for this, but dunno where else to put it)
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They don't build subways into the suburbs, but they'd build them out into the lake? Okay.

Also, considering the divisions betwen inner city and suburb in Paris, the isolation of the suburbs and their exclusion from Paris, which culminated in many riots, I'm not sure that is the model for Toronto, especially considering Toronto suburbs own problems. And Toronto's suburbs are politically united with Toronto, not separate like those Parisian suburbs. Unless you are seriously suggest that Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, East York, York should be kicked out of Toronto and no longer served by TTC at all. I don't agree with that.
 
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doady said:
They don't build subways into the suburbs, but they'd build them out into the lake? Okay.

Also, considering the divisions betwen inner city and suburb in Paris, the isolation of the suburbs and their exclusion from Paris, which culminated in many riots, I'm not sure that is the model for Toronto, especially considering Toronto suburbs own problems. And Toronto's suburbs are politically united with Toronto, not separate like those Parisian suburbs. Unless you are seriously suggest that Etobicoke, North York, Scarborough, East York, York should be kicked out of Toronto and no longer served by TTC at all. I don't agree with that.
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Well, that's another problem with the comparison: geographical range. You can basically extend the metro + RER outwards in all directions until you run out of France (maybe there'll be people commuting in from Belgium one day ...), but transit here covers the lakeshore and extends northwards.

Maybe a better candidate for the why-aren't-we-like-Paris game is Washington: its metro extends well beyond the city into towns in adjoining states that are politically separate but which contribute to its funding.
 
I think how the benefits of amalgamation are presented should are an indicator where the problems lies. Taking the Globe & Mail article that was used to start this thread as a example. The author of the article highlights all the benefits of amalgamation that happen in Old Toronto: AGO(Old Toronto), ROM Renovations (Old Toronto), Union Station Renovations (Old Toronto), Four Seasons Centre(Old Toronto), Pearson Airport Renovations (Mississauga), and so on.

I think we need to restart back at the beginning, focus on urban planning the former borough and city's outside Old Toronto as if they where separate city's on their own; I'm not arguing for de-amalgamation, that ship has sailed, but these former borough and city's need a plan that has their own distinct dense urban core that can grow over time that isn't just about how it will all connect with Old Toronto.
 
CodeMonkey said:
I think we need to restart back at the beginning, focus on urban planning the former borough and city's outside Old Toronto as if they where separate city's on their own; I'm not arguing for de-amalgamation, that ship has sailed, but these former borough and city's need a plan that has their own distinct dense urban core that can grow over time that isn't just about how it will all connect with Old Toronto.
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I wonder if the 4 Toronto Community Councils as well as local BIAs can have some role in facilitating these planning environments or frameworks for the future. It makes very little sense for instance, to have a "one-size-fits-all" approach to providing services (snow ploughing, salting, etc.) for the entire city when they obviously vary greatly in terms of urbanity and population densities.

I believe empowering the Community Councils was actually a part of David Soknacki's mayoral platform.
 
WislaHD said:
I wonder if the 4 Toronto Community Councils as well as local BIAs can have some role in facilitating these planning environments or frameworks for the future. It makes very little sense for instance, to have a "one-size-fits-all" approach to providing services (snow ploughing, salting, etc.) for the entire city when they obviously vary greatly in terms of urbanity and population densities.
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I doubt City Council will admit that the megacity failed in any form, but I suggest that you and anyone else here to who want some changes to how the city is governed should submit comments to the Ministry of Municipal Affairs and Housing - Municipal Legislation Review, the deadline is August 7th. It's a long shot, but stranger things have happen, maybe someone at the Ministry will consider it.
 
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