News   Aug 09, 2024
 1K     2 
News   Aug 09, 2024
 799     0 
News   Aug 09, 2024
 3.6K     3 

saveoursubways (SOS)

Status
Not open for further replies.
You are wrong about selling buses to the public. Rail bias is like god...you can believe in it but there's no way to prove it since there's no such thing as equivalent service and equivalent conditions and context. People do prefer faster travel and fewer transfers and comfier seats and so on, but there's no guarantee that the public will get that any of that with rail and no reason that some or all of it can't be done with buses. The Toronto public is already choosing to ride buses in absolutely enormous numbers. This isn't Detroit. When the TTC has talked about bus improvements or BRT in the past, they don't always mean going straight from regular bus service to whatever they have in Curitiba or bus-exclusive highways. "BRT" is really a spectrum and something like the 190 Rocket is already a minor form of BRT. Limited-stop buses with a few queue jumps, maybe the occasional bus-only lane, maybe a few short bus tunnels to bypass intersections, etc. The public would love to see these sorts of incremental bus improvements, especially since they don't cost the exorbitant billions that rail does. There can be tons of political fanfare for simple bus improvements, and since there's no downsides to them, there won't be any SRT-type backlash infecting transit and politics for decades. Bus improvements are a necessary part of any grand transit scheme and they can be accomplished without much political interference by being largely operational in nature, as opposed to capital-intensive, and since the scale of each project or route is quite small. The Transit City Bus Plan is a tepid and trivial afterthought, though, which is a shame. Even after a zillion dollars of ineffective LRT is built, most people will still be using buses to get around or get to the subway.

Of course, SOS isn't trying to sell a bus-based plan.

+1

510 Spadina would have been a success regardless of whether its steel wheels on tracks or rubber tires on asphalt. The key thing to remember here is the fully segragated ROW between intersections down the median of the corridor, one with transit signal priority. That's how time advantages can be met in order to truly make a route rapid transit. This is why I posted that Youtube video for all of you to see what true Bus Rapid Transit can look like, not YRT VIVA's lame attempt but a true ROW that recycles space along preexisting streets as not to jack up costs to build new roadways. Curbside ROWs, even road median with platform islands can easily be fitted onto any 6 lane width corridor 36m across. Dedicated passing lanes are not an absolute for all BRT routes, all a bus seeking to bypass one paused in the queue to PPUDO has to do is overtake it when the opposite driving lane becomes available. At major intersections you'll observe the road widths typically expand, allowing for a 4m width passing lane for express trips. And the expense to grade separate short distances of the ROW where space on the surface is limited, would still be a small price when road bridges and underpasses built to scale can come in at only a few million dollars per grade separation. If Toronto/TTC introduced a transit system like this along 20 of its key arteries, it would do a far superior job of extending coverage throughout most of Toronto and even the immiediate 905 area because buses don't have to be confined to a set, restrictive length of a roadway whereby any attempts to expand coverage further would be an expensive undertaking. We need affordable and fast results.

And BRT campaign selling can have all the bells and whistles of LRT marketing if only an influential, goal-oriented politician gets behind the wheel and steers public concensus. Most Torontonians are not concerned with what modes transport them to work, school, home, etc. on a daily basis so long as they are fast, reliable and smoothly operated. A bus stop is within seconds of my house, for instance, and it carries me directly to the subway, and I live on a minor street. I would never expect therefore to benefit from taking the bus in the wrong direction to transfer onto a streetcar to do the same job of getting me to the subway. That'd defy logic. The act of transferring may even make my commute longer even if the LRT runs faster than the regular bus service. So if the majority of Torontonians do not see a need to transfer onto the streetcar - since very few people actually live within walking distance of many sections of these proposed LRT lines, and a handful at best in many stretches - the majority will prefer to stay the bus straight into the subway system.

The solution therefore is to cut down the distance in-between subways and the densely populated neighbourhoods/workplaces that rely on them to get around. Since subways cannot go everywhere, at least make the ability to get to them simplified for the majority, not the marginal few whom may ride a LRT line end-to-end or resides in low-density sprawl. I even critically contest the TTC's notion that BRT can only move upto 5000 pphpd when systems in Brisbane, Curitiba and Bogota carry upwards of 35,000-40,000 during peak hours. Afterall BRT is something the TTC has only very recently even attempted to do (and begrudingly at that) and we have yet to see a single articulated bus entered into the current fleets; buses which would reduce the total numbers of buses and drivers required for those buses on the roads. And buses constitute the majority of the TTC's fleet, garners the second highest daily usage after the subway system (1.232 million daily riders) and are adaptable to many roadway conditions that electric railways are often ill-prepared to challenge. So I would encourage cynics to have an open mind and rewatch the Youtube clips, noting how the politicians of the three cities featured, whom wholeheartedly backed the mass implementation of BRT, were so publically praised for it that went on to get elected and re-elected both at the municipal and even national level. I'll repost the links below:

[video=youtube;SDi6VA20Xl8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SDi6VA20Xl8[/video]
Making Things Happen with Bus Rapid Transit: Parts I and II
 
Hwy 27 BRT: not sure what high-density, or even medium-density, nodes are (or will be) located around it, to justify such BRT.

I'll address your last point first, then work backwards. Highway 4/27 is perhaps the single most important, busiest bus transit corridor in the GTA. 18 TTC/MT bus routes utilize it daily. Another 7 routes would have their total mileage per day reduced if they could use the highway as a connector. The ability to create fewer transfers needed to make a one-way trip is enhanced via creation of a ROW which wouldn't see buses just turn back at some random point but actually transport customers on-board all the way to the nearest subway (in reference to 36 Finch West whereby customers need to transfer onto the 191 or other routes to get to the subway). Instead of enforcing the changing of buses, services more readily can just enter onto the ROW and run express down to Sherway Gardens. Interregionally the Highway 4/27 corridor gives us the oppurtunity for multiple transit operators (Brampton Transit, Oakville Transit, YRT, MT, TTC, GO Transit) to share ROW, reduce headways and avoids time wasted leaving the highway via congested collector lanes onto Dundas St which can get hopefully clogged during rush hour. Think about it: a BRT ROW down the highway, not unlike the Spadina Subway could have stations between Dundas and Bloor Sts (Cloverdale Mall) and between Bloor and Burnhamthrope (Etobicoke Civic Ctr/Vahallah Executive Business Park). Versus taking the 111/112 and then walking inwards, many workers/clientele destined for these two trip-generators most likely may opt to take a surface bus subway to these locations (with built-in stations boasting fare collection turnstiles and underground pedestrian linkages to both sides of the highway that can run into the buildings themselves). Under a BRT fleet scheme targeted at catering to major trip genrators, there'd be designated routes for Eglinton through Mississauaga, for Derry, for Steeles, for Finch, for Rexdale and Woodbridge, for the Airport region, for Burnhamthrope, for Dixie, for the Queensway and along Lakeshore both inside and beyond the 416. It'd be a seriously missed opportunity not to upgrade the level of service the corridor can provide, when it'd be relatively easy to do so and cost-effective given its on public lands most of the journey.

As for the high-, medium-density nodes you ponder. Too many to count. Most obviously Rexdale and Malton; but there's also the West Mall/Rathburn high-rise community, Woodbine Live and Centre, Humber College and Etobicoke Hospital, the infrequently served Lakeview/Long Branch area, the growing residential-commercial areas of Sherway, Alderwood and Applewood, basically eastern Mississauga in general plus the 80,000+ workers bound by the area from Martin Grove to Dixie, Eglinton to Dixon/Airport. Never underestimate the potential for north-south dmand through this entire stretch which not even a Eglinton subway alone can head off. It takes both HRT (subway plus improved GO Transit) and a dedicated bus-only ROW to make things work sustainably.

Finch BRT: looks like a straight line, but we know that the hydro corridor tilts south-west between Hwy 400 and Weston Rd, and leaves Finch. Do the buses switch to dedicated lanes on the street at that point? [And, I will not resume the HC-versus-Finch-proper debate here.]

Assume that the transition from the Hydro Corridor right-of-way to Finch proper would be in a grade-separated underpass that spans the crossing of both the rail corridor and Signet, then continues in an open-trench til east of the 400. That's the flexibility of busways at work, the capability to transition from at-grade to below-grade to above-grade without much obstacle.

Jane BRT is particularly questionable. South of Wilson, Jane is, mostly, not wide enough for 6 lanes. It might be able to host a few queue jump lanes - but not necessarily where the queues actually occur. So, is that BRT just a mixed-traffic express bus in reality? Or, are you going to build an underground BRT tunnel? - that alone would cost more than $450 million.

The continuation of Jane BRT south of Bloor is even worse. As I remember, the street (South Kingsway) is 4-lanes wide with no space for even left-turn lanes. And, there is no demonstrable current demand on that route. So, why even bother investing there?

Jane only restricts down to four lanes between Trethewey and Highway 400. This roughly two kilometre stretch can either be grade separated or enforce the multi-purpose lanes be cut down to one lane in each direction, which again is only for a short section. Looking at aerial maps of the Jane-Lawrence neighbourhood, the land use developments, I can see where it'd be possible to run an elevated guideway along the east-hand side of the street that could be a continuance of a bus-only bridge crossing of the Weston Galt. And a BRT tunnel more likely would cost around $20 million/km, still remarkably less expensive than attempting the same with LRT.

It has always been my view that the Jane Line, be it BRT or LRT, should terminate at Mount Dennis Stn to provide simplified access to the GO Train and a future DRL extension. I do not even believe in spending $100+ million on a station in middle of Eglinton Flats Park, because so obviously the transfer from bus-to-train and vice versa should occur in the densest areas. Splitting the Jane service into two separate routes at Eglinton is logical for many reasons, most notably it encourages people to transfer at Eglinton, alleviating B-D in the process. Secondary the abridged 35 Jane South bus can cover more ground than LRT, perhaps taking over the 32D runs along Emmett and could be extended south along S Kingsway to perhaps overlap with the Swansea bus, improving transit access to that community.

2) Altough your subway lines are not unreasonable, the overall network looks very much core-oriented, to the detriment of rail transit (whether subway or LRT) to the north-western and north-eastern "inner suburbs". [And yes, Scarborough Centre is getting 2 subway lines - but Scarborough does not end there.] In that light, how essential is DRL West (from Spadina to Eglinton)? Sure it is nice to have, and may be even slightly cheaper per km than average - but it runs in parallel with the Brampton GO Express service.

I fail to understand this criticism. Northwest Toronto is already receiving subway expansion (TYSSE) which extends almost to Jane and Steeles. Backtracking from any of Finch West or Steeles West to the dense Jane-Finch community should be relatively easy. To Rexdale would be marginally longer, perhaps 15 minutes from the nearest subway, but to be honest, given the miles of low density sprawl a subway would have to navigate through in order to reach Rexdale, it is both politically and fiscally impossible to even suggest this. Northeast Scarborough is also relatively close to Scarborough Town Centre and has been on a radar for decades, unlike Rexdale or Finch West in general, to receive mass transit upgrades. You cite the Weston-Galt there, but may have forgotten that Malvern/Mornigside Hts has a rail corridor running right through it, in the backlot of its desnest area (Neilson/McLevin). It wouldn't take much to improve service to the area, and SOS has in mind to send multiple BRT routes to navigate Scarborough, Rexdale and into other neglected pockets of the city which Transit City has failed to address.

Lastly, I actually feel DRL West to be even more important than the east, as it'd be more than just a commuter line but truly cater to local demand levels. People want fast commutes, yes, but the GO Train doesn't stop often enough or run often enough to be of use to the 20/24 hr transit using crowd. It doesn't serve the Junction, only skims by it, as well other major neighbourhoods downtown it couldn't possibly serve. We're only going by the rail-corridor alignment on our proposal because it'll be an easier sell, more politically feasible than proposing a route that'd lead to mass expropriations through downtown. But were deep channel excavations a possibility, the alignment ultimately built may differ drastically from the Weston-Galt corridor, south of Keele/St Clair.

The report is to the point and easy to read. Now, some critisizm:

1). No LRT lines at all. In the Introduction, you critisized (and rightly so) Transit City for the one-size-fits-all approach. But then you are proposing $30 billion worth of subway projects, and have not found a single route where LRT would be appropriate (except a vague reference that some of BRT corridors might be upgraded to LRT in future).
First of all, what is the scope of your BRT?

There's nothing vague about it. Once a transit-only ROW is built, the City/operators are free at any time to lay tracks over the asphalt, and viola, instanteaneous light-rail built on the cheap. Upfront costs for road-median LRT run in the $60-$80 million bracket, the 6 kms of the York U BRT line cost $38 million total, or well under $10 million/km. We don't have to falsify our numbers to convince the public of anything, the evidence demonstrates time and again that BRT is the most cost-effective and time-effective method to upgrade a transit corridor. Of the seven Transit City routes only two stand out as necessarily having to be LRT: Waterfront West and Don Mills. But like I said, BRT ROWs are readily convertible to light rail. You can't downgrade a service level if ridership is too low to justify the high operation and maintenance costs, Sheppard Subway demonstrates this. You must build in accordance to current demand levels and moderate growth and not from far-off projections because its uncertain whether areas might depopulate over time, meaning fewer riders. The subway however in about every case we've identified is warranted.

Scarborough Centre is the major transit hub of that borough and jump-off point for several Markham/Durham bound trips; and is a major center of commercial activity, employment and housing. This is all happening in spite of no subway. Ditto the Eglinton corridor which some 150, 000 daily riders utilize and some 20 N-S bus routes heading to the Bloor-Danforth would intercept. The SRT is overcrowded and requires switching trains and elapsed wait/dwell times. We could experiment with LRT across Eglinton, but given the corridor's significance to the region, can we really afford to risk messing it up with a mixed traffic stopped by stop lights ROW part of the time, subway for less than a third of its length the other? Combined headways on the 190/85 section of Sheppard suggest there's demand, and SELRT fails to intercept a single major transit terminal/trip generator east of Agincourt (not Malvern Town Ctr, Centennial College nor STC). The difficulties one faces in getting east-west across the downtown core speaks for itself. So you see, we're not biased against LRT, we just don't see how it is applicable to many of the problems in the network metro subways are more suited to address.
 
The exact alignments of Sheppard and Danforth to STC aren't really anything to debate here in my opinion. They'll both reach STC which is the important thing. Whether they interline or not is not important. I envision a kind of N-S alignment at STC, but the exact alignment would be subject to an EA of course.

In my mind, the only real candidate for LRT would be Finch. The SOS plan has Finch as BRT, and Eglinton as subway. We could upgrade Finch to LRT and downgrade Eglinton to subway to fund it. Would that be preferable to people on here? Or is that compromising our principles?
I'd support a downgrade of Eglinton to LRT if and only if the LRT was built end-to-end in one phase, and there was maximum effort at ROW seggregation and grade separation (ie. Use of Richview corridor). I'd like the money saved to be used to upgrade the BRT network first before any upgrades to LRT come in. Finch West would do fine with full BRT (it's only BRT Light now), especially with a parallel subway nearby. Better to upgrade all of Finch, Jane North, Ellesmere and Kingston to full BRT.
 
The good news is SOS now has a fair amount of feedback to start making changes to the report and then post the revised copy on the SOS site
 
Last edited:
Highway 4/27 is perhaps the single most important, busiest bus transit corridor in the GTA. ...

As for the high-, medium-density nodes you ponder. Too many to count. Most obviously Rexdale and Malton; but there's also the West Mall/Rathburn high-rise community, Woodbine Live and Centre, Humber College and Etobicoke Hospital, the infrequently served Lakeview/Long Branch area, the growing residential-commercial areas of Sherway, Alderwood and Applewood, basically eastern Mississauga in general plus the 80,000+ workers bound by the area from Martin Grove to Dixie, Eglinton to Dixon/Airport. Never underestimate the potential for north-south demand through this entire stretch which not even a Eglinton subway alone can head off. It takes both HRT (subway plus improved GO Transit) and a dedicated bus-only ROW to make things work sustainably.

OK, perhaps the case exists for the Highway 4/27 corridor. My gut feeling is that Kipling has more potential, but I am not familiar enough with the area to assert that.

Assume that the transition from the Hydro Corridor right-of-way to Finch proper would be in a grade-separated underpass that spans the crossing of both the rail corridor and Signet, then continues in an open-trench til east of the 400. That's the flexibility of busways at work, the capability to transition from at-grade to below-grade to above-grade without much obstacle.

My suggestion is to update the paragraph about the Finch BRT in your document, and mention that it is in Finch proper (rather than HC) west of Hwy 400.

... a BRT tunnel more likely would cost around $20 million/km, still remarkably less expensive than attempting the same with LRT.

Not a chance - tunneling for BRT won't cost much less than for LRT or subway. In fact, the need to deal with diesel exhaust and to provide wider lanes might make it more expensive.

Jane only restricts down to four lanes between Trethewey and Highway 400. This roughly two kilometre stretch can either be grade separated or enforce the multi-purpose lanes be cut down to one lane in each direction, which again is only for a short section. Looking at aerial maps of the Jane-Lawrence neighbourhood, the land use developments, I can see where it'd be possible to run an elevated guideway along the east-hand side of the street that could be a continuance of a bus-only bridge crossing of the Weston Galt. ...

It has always been my view that the Jane Line, be it BRT or LRT, should terminate at Mount Dennis Stn to provide simplified access to the GO Train and a future DRL extension. I do not even believe in spending $100+ million on a station in middle of Eglinton Flats Park, because so obviously the transfer from bus-to-train and vice versa should occur in the densest areas. Splitting the Jane service into two separate routes at Eglinton is logical for many reasons, most notably it encourages people to transfer at Eglinton, alleviating B-D in the process. Secondary the abridged 35 Jane South bus can cover more ground than LRT, perhaps taking over the 32D runs along Emmett and could be extended south along S Kingsway to perhaps overlap with the Swansea bus, improving transit access to that community.

The scheme you described here, is quite reasonable. But it means that only the route north of Eglinton can be considered BRT; south of Eglinton, it is an ordinary, mixed-traffic bus. Should the map in the SOS plan be changed to reflect that?

Northwest Toronto is already receiving subway expansion (TYSSE) which extends almost to Jane and Steeles. Backtracking from any of Finch West or Steeles West to the dense Jane-Finch community should be relatively easy. To Rexdale would be marginally longer, perhaps 15 minutes from the nearest subway, but to be honest, given the miles of low density sprawl a subway would have to navigate through in order to reach Rexdale, it is both politically and fiscally impossible to even suggest this. Northeast Scarborough is also relatively close to Scarborough Town Centre and has been on a radar for decades, unlike Rexdale or Finch West in general, to receive mass transit upgrades. You cite the Weston-Galt there, but may have forgotten that Malvern/Mornigside Hts has a rail corridor running right through it, in the backlot of its desnest area (Neilson/McLevin). It wouldn't take much to improve service to the area, and SOS has in mind to send multiple BRT routes to navigate Scarborough, Rexdale and into other neglected pockets of the city which Transit City has failed to address.

I personally don't disagree with you on this point, and feel that transit construction should focus on areas where it brings most benefits.

However, you will hear that kind of complaints from the public - that you scrapped inner suburb LRT lines in order to build more subways in and around the city core, which already has much better transit coverage than suburbs.

Once a transit-only ROW is built, the City/operators are free at any time to lay tracks over the asphalt, and viola, instanteaneous light-rail built on the cheap.

Not that simple at all. First of all, tracks do not just lay over asphalt, their foundation must be dug into the street bed. Furthermore, if BRT uses curb lanes but LRT runs in the median, all signage, left-turn lanes etc must be re-worked. So, if you are adding BRT lanes once, and then converting them to LRT several years later, you are basically ripping up the street twice.

Upfront costs for road-median LRT run in the $60-$80 million bracket, the 6 kms of the York U BRT line cost $38 million total, or well under $10 million/km. We don't have to falsify our numbers to convince the public of anything, the evidence demonstrates time and again that BRT is the most cost-effective and time-effective method to upgrade a transit corridor.

You are not falcifying the numbers; but you are giving too little details to review them.

The cost of York U BRT, about 6 million per km, cannot be projected to your BRT plan. Note that Allen Rd between Sheppard and Finch was 6-lane wide already, and two lanes were just designated as BRT - no new construction on that section. If you need to widen the street, it will cost quite a bit more.

Meanwhile, the BRT part of you plan seems to be based on that 6 million-per-km estimate (450 million for about 75 km of BRT).

Of the seven Transit City routes only two stand out as necessarily having to be LRT: Waterfront West and Don Mills. But like I said, BRT ROWs are readily convertible to light rail. You can't downgrade a service level if ridership is too low to justify the high operation and maintenance costs, Sheppard Subway demonstrates this. You must build in accordance to current demand levels and moderate growth and not from far-off projections because its uncertain whether areas might depopulate over time, meaning fewer riders. The subway however in about every case we've identified is warranted.

Scarborough Centre is the major transit hub of that borough and jump-off point for several Markham/Durham bound trips; and is a major center of commercial activity, employment and housing. This is all happening in spite of no subway. Ditto the Eglinton corridor which some 150, 000 daily riders utilize and some 20 N-S bus routes heading to the Bloor-Danforth would intercept. The SRT is overcrowded and requires switching trains and elapsed wait/dwell times. We could experiment with LRT across Eglinton, but given the corridor's significance to the region, can we really afford to risk messing it up with a mixed traffic stopped by stop lights ROW part of the time, subway for less than a third of its length the other? Combined headways on the 190/85 section of Sheppard suggest there's demand, and SELRT fails to intercept a single major transit terminal/trip generator east of Agincourt (not Malvern Town Ctr, Centennial College nor STC). The difficulties one faces in getting east-west across the downtown core speaks for itself. So you see, we're not biased against LRT, we just don't see how it is applicable to many of the problems in the network metro subways are more suited to address.

Even if you believe that none of of Transit City LRT routes makes sense, you could add LRT routes on some other major avenues. The way it stands, the plan will certainly be seen as biased against LRT.
 
The good news is SOS now has a fair amount of feedback to start making changes to the report and then post the revised copy on the SOS site

Make changes? I don't think we're planning any major changes at this point. The core of our plan is the subway network, and that has been pretty much set from day one. SOS involves (1) extending all subway lines and (2) building new lines. The only NEW line that is absolutely necessary is the DRL. Eglinton we prefer as subway, but it's not integral to the plan.
 
Not a chance - tunneling for BRT won't cost much less than for LRT or subway. In fact, the need to deal with diesel exhaust and to provide wider lanes might make it more expensive.

Source? The installation of tracks and overhead electrification, and using vehicles of uniquely high quality through the tunnel, can be expected to cost more than two-thirds to three-fourths the amount required for implementation of the system as Bus Rapid Transit. The hybrid BRT bus can operate on both Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel (ULSD) and electricity that is generated from within the vehicle itself and stored in batteries on the roof. This will eliminate the need for overhead wires inside the tunnel. Plexiglas sliding doors between platform and ROW and natural open-air vent openings through the ceilings, would eliminate the need for elaborate ventilation systems.

Winnipeg Transit plans to spend $31.6 million to build a tunnel below the CNR Fort Rouge Yards, the most ambitious component of the first phase of the southwest bus rapid-transit corridor. This facility spans over a kilometre in length and the press release regarding this project was issued only a couple months ago (November 2009). Compared to the $220 million/km for central Eglinton LRT and $304 million/km for TYSSE; that’s an 85.64% - 89.61% difference in cost projections. Always air with a grain of caution whenever the TTC informs the public that something cannot be done due to high costs. As cited above, cities with fewer resources and of less national/global importance than Toronto are managing to pull it off.

I personally don't disagree with you on this point, and feel that transit construction should focus on areas where it brings most benefits.

However, you will hear that kind of complaints from the public - that you scrapped inner suburb LRT lines in order to build more subways in and around the city core, which already has much better transit coverage than suburbs.

Tell me, did anyone in suburbia ask for or demand a streetcar line through their neighbourhoods or is it just being hoisted onto them against their wishes: http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...op-the-sheppard-lrt-business-group-says.aspx? Of course now to takeaway something the public never wanted in the first place is somehow a crime. Commuters you may find, are just interested in seeing their bus services improved such that it feeds into the subway system much faster, to minimize the time spent commuting and getting from Point A-B… that’s their bottom line. This chatroom is only a microcosm of the real world.

BRT is used more by people who are transit dependent, so bus service improvements provide greater equity benefits. Rail investments are inequitable because they primarily benefit higher-income people and drain funding from the basic bus service used by lower-income, transit-dependent people. LRT sets up a double-standard, creates the notion that there’s second-class of citizens in Toronto because of their limited scope and range of coverage, with the best neighbourhoods garnering the highest forms of transit. Catering to a bourgeoisie whom can afford to buy into adjoining private properties and ergo gain the most benefit from them, opposed to low-income residents whom would have to commute via bus many miles over to their nearest LRT access point.

Meanwhile several routes can converge onto one single busway thereby reducing the need for transfers. BRT therefore is more suitable for dispersed land use, such as suburban locations. Bus routes have the flexibility to change and expand when needed, for example, if a roadway is closed or if destinations or demand changes. And best of all BRT busways can phase in service instead of waiting for entire system to be completed.

Not that simple at all. First of all, tracks do not just lay over asphalt, their foundation must be dug into the street bed. Furthermore, if BRT uses curb lanes but LRT runs in the median, all signage, left-turn lanes etc must be re-worked. So, if you are adding BRT lanes once, and then converting them to LRT several years later, you are basically ripping up the street twice.

Possible guideway construction details to facilitate later removal and replacement with rail track and electrical ducting imbedded or otherwise can be implemented to minimize the conversion time. One of the key points in the possible appropriateness of this approach is that the lower cost of bus RT gives latitude to include design and construction features that will simplify and streamline later conversion, if this becomes the desired action. Details such as utility relocations, provisions for drainage, and vehicle clearance envelopes are common design features for both bus and rail ROW construction.

The cost of York U BRT, about 6 million per km, cannot be projected to your BRT plan. Note that Allen Rd between Sheppard and Finch was 6-lane wide already, and two lanes were just designated as BRT - no new construction on that section. If you need to widen the street, it will cost quite a bit more.

Even if BRT winds up costing more, it’s on average 80% less expensive than Rail Transit. Every section of Transit City that’s not already 6-lane wide will itself need to be widened. If we are to reduce car dependency, which I think is step one in creating better bike and pedestrian access in the city, we have to think about the agility of transportation systems (people move, people’s destinations change, mode popularity changes i.e. more bikes = more bike lanes needed, etc.) and cost-effectiveness if we are to get buy-in from car dependent politicians, planning departments, and residents.

When one looks at full life-cycle analysis, peak-period commute BRT is more energy-efficient than rail. That is even the case when one gives rail the benefit is always leverages in these comparisons — externalizing all the costs such as trips by other modalities to and from stations, and the lousy land-use induced by rail, etc.

Meanwhile, the BRT part of you plan seems to be based on that 6 million-per-km estimate (450 million for about 75 km of BRT).

Estimates and actual costs can vary; sometimes more, sometimes less than projected. A relatively straight, flat and wide section of roadway may wind up costing only $2 million/km. Earmark-specific targeted spending, usually as part of a larger bill, can evade the scrutiny bills go under during the normal appropriations process. Pork-barrellers usually wait until after the hearings end to stick in a few million dollars of pork into an already sanctioned multibillion dollar bill. The Building Efficient Surface Transportation and Equity Act (BESTEA) of the United States, for instance, contains at least $18 billion in so-called “demonstration and high-priority projects” ~ congressional euphemisms designed to curry favor with its voters. So when it’s announced that Transit City lines will cost a minimum of $12 billion dollars, just consider how much of that is actually fluff used to line the pockets of special interest lobbyists.

BRT cost breakdowns are not hyper inflated; and in every case that I’ve personally researched the information in regards to project expenditures were presented in a straightforward, comprehensive manner which spelt out in concise, specific detail what the money was going to be spent on. Nothing appeared to be skewed. But when the TTC decides to lump together the pricetag to do minor grade separations with the pricetag to build an entire ROW, this distorts and biases the numbers of the overall project leaving an opening for fiscal error and misappropriations. So before anyone critiques $450 million for 75 kms of BRT that'd span Toronto, remember that not one single line of Transit City LRTs, some as short as 12 kms, will cost anywhere near this figure and take almost a decade to complete in most cases furthering inflating the final bill. My point is that the city can afford to incur the costs if BRT runs a little higher than projected, but if LRT's too costly to build then nothing gets built for whole communities indeffinitely.
 
Last edited:
Your cost estimate doesn't include underground stations, most usually one of if not the most expensive part of an underground system. Plus 'natural open air venting through the ceiling' doesn't work with a bored tunnel. Not saying that BRT is bad for every application, but it would be stupid to use on Eglinton. There is reason that Seattle with a bus tunnel spent a lot of money to convert it to an LRT tunnel.
 
Your cost estimate doesn't include underground stations, most usually one of if not the most expensive part of an underground system. Plus 'natural open air venting through the ceiling' doesn't work with a bored tunnel. Not saying that BRT is bad for every application, but it would be stupid to use on Eglinton. There is reason that Seattle with a bus tunnel spent a lot of money to convert it to an LRT tunnel.

Actually, the Tunnel was closed to replace tracks that were poorly laid when the tunnel opened in 1990.

The tunnel was quite expensive to build, $455 Million for 2.1km
 
Last edited:
^ No train had ever run on those tracks. In any case look at Ottawa - it is not building a bus tunnel, it is replacing its BRT with LRT.
 
Your cost estimate doesn't include underground stations, most usually one of if not the most expensive part of an underground system. Plus 'natural open air venting through the ceiling' doesn't work with a bored tunnel. Not saying that BRT is bad for every application, but it would be stupid to use on Eglinton. There is reason that Seattle with a bus tunnel spent a lot of money to convert it to an LRT tunnel.

Where did we ever say we were going to build underground BRT? Very few of the corridors will even be full BRT, rather they will be BRT Light (curbside cut-outs, cue jump lanes, etc). And yes, a BRT tunnel on Eglinton is a stupid idea, that's why we didn't propose it...

And as for Ottawa, I'm from there, and I have followed the project very closely. The reason Ottawa is building an LRT through the core is the same reason why Toronto wants to build the DRL: the added capacity. The current at-grade bus lanes through the core are insufficient. The LRT is barely even leaving the inner suburbs (I don't even know if I would classify Tunney's Pasture as inner suburbs). The majority of the network will still be BRT, with the inner section upgraded to grade-separated LRT where it is needed most.

And in any case, this whole debate is moot because nowhere in our plan have we called for a BRT tunnel. The BRT Light we have proposed is meant to be moderate improvements to the existing major bus corridors to increase frequency and reliability to get to the closest subway station, all at a very reasonable cost.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top