Roncesvalles Reconstruction

[wanderer66]

Bike Lanes

As Councillor Perks had stated in one of the meetings earlier this fall, there is no room for a Bike Lane in the design of the new Streetscape. The road was originally designed around the Streetcar with one lane of traffic on either side of them. The main goal of the Beautification effort (community-wise) was to create more sidewalk space as Roncie is a "foot friendly" area. With the bumpouts, there will be about 10 % less parking available. If Bike Lanes are included into the design, the only possible way of including it would be to eliminate one side of parking... therfore, a 60 % loss of parking. No business can survive a drop like that regardless of what neighbourhood they are in. Roncesvalles is a destination for many that live outside of the area and there wouldn't be any "improvement" to the quality of life here if we excluded those who don't live here already.

 

[junctionist]

As Councillor Perks had stated in one of the meetings earlier this fall, there is no room for a Bike Lane in the design of the new Streetscape. The road was originally designed around the Streetcar with one lane of traffic on either side of them. The main goal of the Beautification effort (community-wise) was to create more sidewalk space as Roncie is a "foot friendly" area. With the bumpouts, there will be about 10 % less parking available. If Bike Lanes are included into the design, the only possible way of including it would be to eliminate one side of parking... therfore, a 60 % loss of parking. No business can survive a drop like that regardless of what neighbourhood they are in. Roncesvalles is a destination for many that live outside of the area and there wouldn't be any "improvement" to the quality of life here if we excluded those who don't live here already.

Some businesses on Bloor downtown gave up all their parking for street beautification, and studies have shown that businesses on Bloor downtown in general do the overwhelming majority of business with people who don't drive. So that's one neighbourhood where businesses could survive a greater drop, and it's the same on Yonge.

Street parking actually accommodates very few people. How does a business on a Victorian street like Roncesvalles get by with essentially one parking spot in front of its storefront? After all, the area wasn't designed for businesses to thrive based off people driving there like a mall.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Some businesses on Bloor downtown gave up all their parking for street beautification, and studies have shown that businesses on Bloor downtown in general do the overwhelming majority of business with people who don't drive. So that's one neighbourhood where businesses could survive a greater drop, and it's the same on Yonge.

Street parking actually accommodates very few people. How does a business on a Victorian street like Roncesvalles get by with essentially one parking spot in front of its storefront? After all, the area wasn't designed for businesses to thrive based off people driving there like a mall.

Especially when the spot is taken by an employee or by someone in the second floor apartment or office. As for Yonge Street, there is no parking allowed but the stores and restaurants are still doing fine.

 

[wanderer66]

Parking

Junctionist, your point is not very valid.

1) there really wasn't that much available (metered) parking on Bloor downtown to begin with if I'm assuming you mean the stretch from Yonge to Bay.
2) there is also the fact that you have a TTC line that runs underneath the street with no less than 5 stops if you want to include Sherbourne to Spadina.
3) not too many (sane) people will want to try to find parking in that area as they know it's always a zoo... they'll choose to park somewhat close by and walk or take the TTC.
4) it was designed well before both of our time.

If you wanted to make a more accurate example, you would have chosen a street like Parliament which I equate more in parallel to what Roncesvalles is. If you decided to cut 60% of the parking on Parliament, you'd have the local BIA screaming bloody murder. A secondary street like Roncesvalles needs as much parking as possible. Most businesses are SMALL businesses (unlike Bloor Street "downtown"). They cannot survive on local residents alone to keep them open. Somewhat recently, a study group found that most people who do drive down to Roncie have to park upwards to a 1.0 to 1.5 blocks away from the business they are frequenting. That's with the current level of available parking. If you take away 10%... consider maybe up to 2 blocks away... I'm okay with that. But if you take away 60 %, one would be lucky to find any parking on the street. As well, the side streets are all permit parking so at night, drop the available spots even lower.
If the construction can be done in a timely fashion, Streetcar flow will recommence North and South so coming from the Dundas West Station will be easier to get here but that still won't ameliorate the situation since businesses are still car dependent.

 

[junctionist]

Junctionist, your point is not very valid.

1) there really wasn't that much available (metered) parking on Bloor downtown to begin with if I'm assuming you mean the stretch from Yonge to Bay.
2) there is also the fact that you have a TTC line that runs underneath the street with no less than 5 stops if you want to include Sherbourne to Spadina.
3) not too many (sane) people will want to try to find parking in that area as they know it's always a zoo... they'll choose to park somewhat close by and walk or take the TTC.
4) it was designed well before both of our time.

So if people walk or take the TTC to Bloor, why not Roncesvalles if they know they won't find parking? It's well served by streetcars departing from a subway station that isn't that far away. Unlike Bloor, people on the streetcar actually see the businesses they're passing, which increases exposure. Roncesvalles is more focused on local needs, and the businesses are clearly aimed at locals, hence the grocery store, fruit and vegetable stores, coffee shops, banks, pharmacies, and hardware. And many more pass by on the streetcar.

If you wanted to make a more accurate example, you would have chosen a street like Parliament which I equate more in parallel to what Roncesvalles is. If you decided to cut 60% of the parking on Parliament, you'd have the local BIA screaming bloody murder. A secondary street like Roncesvalles needs as much parking as possible. Most businesses are SMALL businesses (unlike Bloor Street "downtown"). They cannot survive on local residents alone to keep them open. Somewhat recently, a study group found that most people who do drive down to Roncie have to park upwards to a 1.0 to 1.5 blocks away from the business they are frequenting. That's with the current level of available parking. If you take away 10%... consider maybe up to 2 blocks away... I'm okay with that. But if you take away 60 %, one would be lucky to find any parking on the street. As well, the side streets are all permit parking so at night, drop the available spots even lower.
If the construction can be done in a timely fashion, Streetcar flow will recommence North and South so coming from the Dundas West Station will be easier to get here but that still won't ameliorate the situation since businesses are still car dependent.

But given the density of parking versus business on both Roncesvalles and Parliament, the areas can't possibly accomodate many cars in the first place for each business. The businesses need to be able to survive in the built form in which they operate which is quite favourable to business with ample population density and many people on streetcars passing through the area. Perhaps some businesses are car dependent, but they chose to operate where streetcars and locals provide the greatest customer base and where parking is almost nonexistent. These are old, secondary mixed-use streets. It's dubious to expect businesses there to thrive based off car parking.

Perhaps what would cement the streetcar as a vital source of customers would be a transfer that allows stopovers on Roncesvalles.

 

[wanderer66]

"So if people walk or take the TTC to Bloor, why not Roncesvalles if they know they won't find parking?" > Answer is they always have but to have the option of parking directly (or close to) in front of the shop you want to go to has always made driving an easier way of getting there... especially if you have to make multiple stops. As well, along both Bloor and Yonge, there are large parking lots that make getting to businesses easier. Some of those lots are minutes away, just like all the TTC stops. Roncesvalles (and Parliament to a certain extent) don't have any parking lots anywhere close to the same size or proximity.

"It's well served by streetcars" > Not right now it isn't and won't be for at least another 11 - 12 months.

"A subway station that isn't that far away." > By Streetcar or Car but walking is more of an effort. Leave any shop between Spadina and Yonge and you can get to your destination in a few minutes... sometimes even under ground. If you decide to do that on Roncie, you have to walk quite a bit south along Dundas before you even get to Roncesvalles.

"Unlike Bloor, people on the streetcar actually see the businesses they're passing, which increases exposure." > True.

"Roncesvalles is more focused on local needs, and the businesses are clearly aimed at locals, hence the grocery store, fruit and vegetable stores, coffee shops, banks, pharmacies, and hardware. And many more pass by on the streetcar." > True but I say again, a local neighbourhood cannot support local business anymore these days. Some businesses are a destination for others who live elsewhere in the city. And, if you told any business owner along Bloor west of Spadina that they would be losing half of their parking they go ballistic.

"But given the density of parking versus business on both Roncesvalles and Parliament, the areas can't possibly accomodate many cars in the first place for each business." > Yes it can and it already does... there's quite of a lot of parking allowed on both sides of the street.

"The businesses need to be able to survive in the built form in which they operate which is quite favourable to business with ample population density and many people on streetcars passing through the area." > ?... If I understand this one... the businesses are surviving with the way that the street had been originally designed (with available parking on BOTH sides of the street). My original point was that if you eliminate 50 % of the parking, many businesses won't survive in the long run.

"Perhaps some businesses are car dependent, but they chose to operate where streetcars and locals provide the greatest customer base and where parking is almost nonexistent." > Again you don't state the whole truth here... Locals do make up a fair share of the consumer base, but not all of it. The TTC provides others just like a lot of Cars. There is (or was before the construction) a goodly amount of street parking available... on both sides of the street!

"These are old, secondary mixed-use streets"" > Then why did you originally compare it to Yonge and Bloor Streets.

"Perhaps what would cement the streetcar as a vital source of customers would be a transfer that allows stopovers on Roncesvalles." > Yes, it already is one of the main ways for people to get along the street but the TTC is actually reducing the number of stops for the Streetcar in hopes of improving the pace of the flow along the street but we aren't talking about Streetcars... we are talking about Cars and parking here.

 

[Emanuel]

Somewhat recently, a study group found that most people who do drive down to Roncie have to park upwards to a 1.0 to 1.5 blocks away from the business they are frequenting. That's with the current level of available parking.

Hello wanderer, could you direct me to this study? I am conducting research now on Roncesvalles and the study you mention may be worth a read.

Thanks and regards,
Emanuel

 

[wanderer66]

Emanuel, sorry that I'm not getting bck to you until now, but you'd have the best success finding all that you need from Councillor Perks. He and his staff will have what you'll need... email address is councillor_perks@toronto.ca

Now, an update on the state of Roncie.

Last Thursday (the 11th), a meeting was held at the Polish Credit Union with the Councillor and Tony Cauch, of the RVBIA. The meeting covered a gamut of topics ranging from the latest updates on Phase 1 (Water Mains) to the details of Phase 2 (TTC tracks and Sidewalk replacement).

Unfortunately Phase 1 is still not done and won't be finished (by Howard Park) until mid March (I believe). Concerns were brought up by local business owners and residents about compensation by the Contractors over damages to buildings (and of course to the businesses) that occurred during this Phase. The Councillor was less than firm on what could be done to speed up said compensation which wasn't well received by those that are "out of pocket." The general consensus among the crowd (whether right or wrong) was that the city seemed to place more concern with the welfare of the Contractors and not of the public. There must be a way of challenging the Contractors to set a realistic Tender and then abide by it. Start on time and end on time. Any damages caused by them should be dealt with as professionally as well... it isn't that way though unfortunately as they seem to be able to keep biding for jobs around town even if they are competent or not.

Phase 2 has already hit some snags. Last Fall Councillor Perks hoped that the relaying of the tracks would start in April, now it's not going to commence until June. They have slated 3.5 months to do the tracks from the bottom of the street all the way to the top. Sidewalks would be done next then and new Trees to follow that. They have set a "Stop Date" of December 3rd so that businesses can have a "Holiday Season" which they didn't have in 2009... construction was done up to the last week before Christmas. Any unfinished work will be covered over until the Spring of 2011. I do not believe that they can do all of this in 6 months... it seems wildly unrealistic in my opinion. The last thing Councillor Perks wanted (and I quote from him) was for the job to go into a 3rd year. This may not be the fiasco that St. Clair is and was but it's becoming one very quickly. Four businesses have closed so far. All probably not because of the tear up but I'm sure that it was "the straw that broke the Camel's back." How many more will go if the next phase goes into say May of 2011?

It's one thing for someone to have a grand vision of what a street would (hopefully) look like but if that vision kills businesses and investment in that area, is it worth it? The street will be beautiful in say 2 or 3 years from now when all the trees are in and have had a chance to grow a bit but all it is now is a grey lifeless boulevard. A friend calls this street... Perkatory.

 

[drum118]

Emanuel, sorry that I'm not getting bck to you until now, but you'd have the best success finding all that you need from Councillor Perks. He and his staff will have what you'll need... email address is councillor_perks@toronto.ca

Now, an update on the state of Roncie.

Last Thursday (the 11th), a meeting was held at the Polish Credit Union with the Councillor and Tony Cauch, of the RVBIA. The meeting covered a gamut of topics ranging from the latest updates on Phase 1 (Water Mains) to the details of Phase 2 (TTC tracks and Sidewalk replacement).

Unfortunately Phase 1 is still not done and won't be finished (by Howard Park) until mid March (I believe). Concerns were brought up by local business owners and residents about compensation by the Contractors over damages to buildings (and of course to the businesses) that occurred during this Phase. The Councillor was less than firm on what could be done to speed up said compensation which wasn't well received by those that are "out of pocket." The general consensus among the crowd (whether right or wrong) was that the city seemed to place more concern with the welfare of the Contractors and not of the public. There must be a way of challenging the Contractors to set a realistic Tender and then abide by it. Start on time and end on time. Any damages caused by them should be dealt with as professionally as well... it isn't that way though unfortunately as they seem to be able to keep biding for jobs around town even if they are competent or not.

Phase 2 has already hit some snags. Last Fall Councillor Perks hoped that the relaying of the tracks would start in April, now it's not going to commence until June. They have slated 3.5 months to do the tracks from the bottom of the street all the way to the top. Sidewalks would be done next then and new Trees to follow that. They have set a "Stop Date" of December 3rd so that businesses can have a "Holiday Season" which they didn't have in 2009... construction was done up to the last week before Christmas. Any unfinished work will be covered over until the Spring of 2011. I do not believe that they can do all of this in 6 months... it seems wildly unrealistic in my opinion. The last thing Councillor Perks wanted (and I quote from him) was for the job to go into a 3rd year. This may not be the fiasco that St. Clair is and was but it's becoming one very quickly. Four businesses have closed so far. All probably not because of the tear up but I'm sure that it was "the straw that broke the Camel's back." How many more will go if the next phase goes into say May of 2011?

It's one thing for someone to have a grand vision of what a street would (hopefully) look like but if that vision kills businesses and investment in that area, is it worth it? The street will be beautiful in say 2 or 3 years from now when all the trees are in and have had a chance to grow a bit but all it is now is a grey lifeless boulevard. A friend calls this street... Perkatory.

Why not start doing the sidewalk work in April leaving provision where it will meet the track work after it built??

Not that hard to do.

What do business want or expect with the old infrastructure that needs to be replace??

Again this blaming construction for business failure is a joke?

Saying cars support the business is saying if it wasn't for the horses and buggy's, business who not survive 100+ years ago.

Business come and go as the market changes over the years as well how well it is run in the first place. At the same time, is the business the right one for the area as well how many competitors are you competing again you in the area??

If one looks at this area, it has a large cycling community visiting and shopping compare to rest of the city.

The BIA wanted this change and knew full well what was going to happen.

90% of the cars parked on the street are driven by single driver with some of them working in the stores or live above the store in the first place.

The feet traffic is about 5-1 vs.cars if not more. Transit out strips the cars along this area.

As to damages cause by the construction, what damages has been caused not related to business as I have over 1,000 photo's of before and during construction for the whole section to say ya or na??

This area is the only area I know city wide that has got road repaved for special events as well construction stop, as well over the winter months.

The ward councilor has got money ($10' of thousands) wasted to please the residents and Business, so you should be grateful to him for doing this as it has never happen city wide.

 

[wanderer66]

Why not start doing the sidewalk work in April leaving provision where it will meet the track work after it built??

- It seems the TTC wants to get the heavy work out of the way first... you'd have to ask them why they have first dibs.

What do business want or expect with the old infrastructure that needs to be replace??

- I realize fully that old pipes and roads have to be replaced but it HAS TO be done in a competent, professional manner. Phase 1 is already 2 months over budget and will go into a 3rd easily. St.Clair is in some parts a ghost town. From talking with friends in that area, they have told me almost 1/3rd of Businesses have turned over. Anyone driving up into that area can see the damage that the construction has done. A Construction company that bids on a Tender that says that the pipes are 100 years old (for example) should expect delays and build that into their bid's time line.

Again this blaming construction for business failure is a joke?

and

Saying cars support the business is saying if it wasn't for the horses and buggy's, business who not survive 100+ years ago.

- Most businesses would not survive 100 years ago in today's mind set because back then there weren't dozens of other same businesses in their town/city. All one has to do is DRIVE or take the TTC to a Mall that dot the city. Roncesvalles is a destination for a sizeable minority of revenue down here. Do you really believe that local inhabitants make up all of the revenue for Roncie? If you do, you are out of touch with reality. People are creatures of habit... if something gets in our way we will find new places to go and new things to do.

Business come and go as the market changes over the years as well how well it is run in the first place. At the same time, is the business the right one for the area as well how many competitors are you competing again you in the area??

- I agree fully with you... it's quite Darwinian.

If one looks at this area, it has a large cycling community visiting and shopping compare to rest of the city.

- yes it does have a large proportion of cyclists but really... are you going to pick up 3 gallons of paint from the local Hardware store on a bike... again, reality check.

The BIA wanted this change and knew full well what was going to happen.

- I'm sure they wanted change, but they wanted someone competent to do it. All we have seen from both Comer and Varcon are delays and damages... and a complete lack of support for the community they are working in.

90% of the cars parked on the street are driven by single driver with some of them working in the stores or live above the store in the first place.

- What survey, census did you base those figures from? While some parking may be taken up by residents (Apartment or Business), 90 % seems wildly high.

The feet traffic is about 5-1 vs.cars if not more. Transit out strips the cars along this area.

- While I agree with you about the TTC bringing more people into the neighbourhood than private cars, there is ONLY northbound bus traffic now and if my (gu)estimation is right, full north and southbound service won't return until Spring of next year. Many people who live outside of this area come down on the weekends and not all take the TTC.

As to damages cause by the construction, what damages has been caused not related to business as I have over 1,000 photo's of before and during construction for the whole section to say ya or na??

- Both Loons and Intersteer have had flooding (and sizeable costs for repair) and a few other places have had items get damaged / destroyed from falling off of shelves from the vibrations that the machinery created.

This area is the only area I know city wide that has got road repaved for special events as well construction stop, as well over the winter months.

- As the centre of the City's (and quite possibly the Province's) Polish community, special attention should have been placed on repaving a small portion of torn up road to accommodate the Festival. Winter construction is happening dummy because Varcon is so woefully behind schedule... ps... not everyone here thought that the repaving for the Polis Festival was such a smart idea.

The ward councilor has got money ($10' of thousands) wasted to please the residents and Business, so you should be grateful to him for doing this as it has never happen city wide.

- If you want waste, don't look at he "whining" Roncesvalles business owners, or residents... look at City Hall's waste that occurs (probably) daily. As to being grateful, I don't know too many people here who would use that word to describe any interaction with him. Spineless and incompetent would be better. And as well, isn't it the Councillor's job to look out for his constituents?

Look, I know that there is pain and destruction when something like this happens, but if the City and the Contractors act in an unprofessional manner and waste time and money the only people who suffer are the people who live and work in the area being redeveloped. I am not an idiot... I can accept blame and responsiblity if something I do makes someone else suffer... it's high time that our Councillors did the same.

 

[Emanuel]

Thanks for the replies.

As part of my thesis work I surveyed and interviewed patrons and businesses on Roncie and the concerns over construction management and phasing were quite clear.

My paper is not yet finished and I wish to publish it when it's done, but so far there are some very interesting findings regarding the customer base, its location and mode of travel choices, and its reaction to construction and street change.

Emanuel

 

[SunriseChampion]

What is with this city in constructing these types of infrastructure projects?
I wonder if contractors that can be hired must have unionised employees. Wouldn't surprise me if that were the case. Rate of construction seems to indicate that.

I can already see what kind of shitstorm TC is gonna cause.

 

[wanderer66]

Sorry MTown , what's TC?

 

[JasonParis]

TC = Transit City

 

[kettal]

I predict that the Roncesvalles customer demographic is set to change regardless of the parking situation. The downtown condo population is growing at about 50,000 units a year. These customers should be courted by Roncy businesses. These people are likely to get there by walking or on transit.

I also would suggest turning High Park Plaza into a Green P lot, and give parkers free access to the TTC with their parking ticket. But that's too creative for our Toronto.