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Rob Ford's Toronto

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The overwhelming singular solution proposed by the majority of the speakers down there last night was that they were freely willing to pay more taxes in order to guarantee no cuts to spending. That is, they were willing to pay themselves.

So what we really need is a referendum to decide on service cuts vs/ tax increase right? Methinks the outcome would be strikingly similar to our last election where we saw the suburban conservative opinion outweigh the leftist downtown vote.
 
It doesn't require a slash and burn type of cut; it requires taking a CLOSE and careful look at current systems and procedures before restructuring. That hasn't been done.
You're jumping the gun a little - they haven't actually cut anything yet.

The first stage of that close and careful look you're calling for was the core services review. It found that most of what the city does really is core.

The next stage - coming soon - is the efficiency review. This is things like procedures, staffing levels, overlaps, etc... and this is where the biggest potential opportunities to save are likely to be found. They've said this all along.

They may leave every single service or location intact, but trim back the number of people providing it or reduce the hours that it's available. This would actually allow Ford to keep his promise that services won't be eliminated. Scaling back or expecting more efficiency is a different matter.

Until that review happens, this first KPMG report is nothing more than a starting point for discussion.

You're asking for that close look to happen and guess what, it will.
 
So..... They don't want any cuts. Don't want any programs touched. Don't want layoffs of any kind. They want others to foot the bill forever as a solution.
tkip, let me ask you: what is the proportion of the taxes you pay that go to the City of Toronto? What percentage of your income is taken for services the city provides? If you can't answer those questions, how can you possibly say definitively that you are paying too much?
 
I don't think that the core services review was really all that close and careful actually -- there seemed to be a lot of missing stakeholder input and much seemed to be "beyond the scope". I hope that close look will happen, but I also hope that will truly be a close look, not just a nod to one.
 
I don't think that the core services review was really all that close and careful actually -- there seemed to be a lot of missing stakeholder input and much seemed to be "beyond the scope". I hope that close look will happen, but I also hope that will truly be a close look, not just a nod to one.
My post was meant to make clear that the first review isn't the only one being done, nor was it really even expected to be close and careful. The scope was simply to define what is core and what isn't. They did get into potential savings, but decisions wouldn't be made on thse outside numbers alone - of course the committees and stakeholders would go further into their own numbers as would be required.

Even the next review that will actually be more close and personal is still not the same as the city taking what KPMG gives them and looking even deeper - but if they come back and say "Department X is 96% efficient, but Department Y performs more poorly at 68%" then it gives you directions to dig more. People within the departments are going to be protective of the staff and their budgets, so internal reviews don't always reveal inefficiencies until they're pointed out by a neutral outside view. Sometimes this is the city's own auditor or controller, but even they can be misled by the numbers they're given or not have a measuring stick of other cities numbers to compare to - while KPMG does and that's the real value they bring to the table in this process. If they come back and say "staffing levels within Department Z" are 30% higher than any other city, you have to question why. It's possible that more people are needed because of issues unique to Toronto, but maybe 12% more staff would actually cover it.

These reviews are coming.
 
Not only should taxes be raised every year, they should be raised guilt-free until our taxation rate is at least the equal to surrounding municipalities in the GTA. I would argue it should cost a premium to live in Toronto but I wont go there yet.

I find it interesting that Mammoliti kept calling the deputants for specifics as to howto pay for the current programs - as if a 3 minute window is the correct format to talk dollars and cents.

In broad brush strokes it seems obvious to me just by looking at previous years how a budget could come together: Firstly the actual deficit will be around half the projected ($375M), add back the vehicle tax (now $310M), raise property taxes 5% for another $150M revenue or so ($160M), now look for efficiencies (which yes could mean some layoffs or some reduction in funding without cutting whole programs) or cap in hand it to the province again. This is pretty much the formula for the last 3 years or so of Miller budgets.
 
To my fellow posters here who oppose the nonsense that the Ford Bros and their cronies are perpetrating: write your councillor. I just did.

Better yet. See your councillor in person. I don't need to convince my councillor (Mike Layton) but last night I gave Michael Thompson a piece of my mind. I told him I was disappointed in him for aligning himself with Ford and embarrassed that he was doing it to kiss up to the Mayor. I worked with Michael and considered him a friend but I can no longer support him in any way after he helped to kill my community bridge (Fort York) and voted to kill the Jarvis bike lanes that he was once proud of.

If his own constituents put this kind of pressure on him, his career becomes at risk for the chance of getting a powerful position with a one term Mayor who will go down in history as the worst. Karen Stintz is already distancing herself from Ford and I doubt she'll be TTC chair through next year. Eventually Ford is going to run out of Yes Men.
 
These reviews are coming.

You raise valid points which in turn raise valid questions as to the broadcasting of the partial findings that have been gathered to date. As others have noted, there is a problem with messaging coming out of City Hall, and Mayor Ford in particular likes to talk about things as done deals rather than studies that are in the preliminary stages. I haven't decided yet if this is an actual strategy or not (I suspect not), but I do think he likes to rabble-rouse.
 
To those calling for property tax increases. There's a distinction that a lot of you are either missing or glossing over.

It's one thing to say that the increases should increase with inflation, but you do realize that even without a rate change, that they increase all the time just because of the increased assessment values, right?

This is not true - if every property in Toronto equally doubled in assessment value nobody's property taxes would change by one penny. Its only if some areas go up in value more than others that they pay more (and the other areas pay less)
 
Correct. The way property taxes work is that the city determines how much revenue they want to raise this year from property taxes and then does a calculation based on the number of households and assessed value to determine how much you get charged as a homeowner.

e.g, if the city raised $4 billion in property taxes this year, a 0% property tax increase would mean that they generate that same 4 billion next year. A 3% property tax increase would push that out to $4.12 billion.
 
This is not true - if every property in Toronto equally doubled in assessment value nobody's property taxes would change by one penny. Its only if some areas go up in value more than others that they pay more (and the other areas pay less)
You're right - it works backwards from the total dollars they want and gets divided accordingly. The many layers of taxes had me thinking it was an increase on an increase (like energy bills), when the fact is that Toronto's rates in relation to actual values have been kept very low and even shrinking.

I think they need to allow new units to add to the revenue base, rather than divide them into the budget total. These new units require an increase in services and should reasonably bump total revenues accordingly. This would prevent from % changes from applying accross the board and generating more revenue where it's actually used. The province needs to change this requirement of municipalities to not have deficits or surpluses - deficits yes, but a surplus should be possible with the stipulation that if costs don't eat into it, that it's used exclusively for debt repayment.

For all the people whinging about Ford, keep in mind that cities are not allowed by law to budget for a deficit - some resolution has to be made.
 
Sure, but open question to the more conservative types: what programs would you cut in 2012 to produce significant savings?

Be realistic. None of this "I'd contract out transit!" stuff because that's not workable for 2012, nor can you realistically modify existing collective agreements.
 
Property taxes HAVE to go up every year, at the very least to keep up with inflation. Gimmicky property tax freezes essentially result in a net reduction of revenues for governments. Income taxes and sales taxes, on the other hand, are based on percentages that grow with the economy, so they can stay stagnate and still generate more revenues in good times. If people earn more and spend more, the provincial and federal governments generate revenues. The City's largest revenue driver -- property taxes -- doesn't work that way.

Poor management is a customer service issue and may involve more spending in the short-term to identify the issue and work to fix it. I agree that it's worth doing, though.

While there are often good reasons for service cuts or tax cuts, I truly think about 90% of the current City Hall debate is being driven by a critical misunderstanding about the differences between how municipalities raise money and how the provincial/federal governments raise money.

"You can't raise property taxes forever." Wrong. You have to raise property taxes every year simply to maintain existing services. At the municipal level, taxes are measured in absolute dollar terms. But at the provincial and federal level, taxes are measured as a percentage of income or as a percentage of sales. These tax revenues grow with the economy, even if taxes are not "raised." And so, when a provincial or federal government "raises taxes," they are not only claiming more tax revenues in absolute terms, they are claiming a larger share of the total pie going forward. This is what you can't do forever, and this is why "raising taxes" at the federal/provincial level is worthy of serious debate. But at the municipal level, "raising taxes" is what cities do simply to continue existing.

"We have a structural deficit." Well, not exactly. Municipalities, by law, are not allowed to run deficits, and are only allowed to borrow money for capital purchases, like roads, bridges and buildings. The provincial and federal governments, on the other hand, are allowed to borrow money for ongoing operational expenses, like salaries. Everybody knows you are in trouble if you are always paying for groceries with a credit card, but that mortgages are a normal and justifiable debt. When people freak out about the federal or provincial deficit, they are worrying about credit card debt, which can keep increasing unless there is pressure to stop the spending, pressure which fiscal conservatives are happy to apply (and rightly so). But at the municipal level, no one needs to "pressure" the government to balance municipal books. The only debt we have is mortgage debt, and the "structural deficit" is a simply a term meaning "Gosh, every year it is harder and harder to balance these books, as we are required by law to do."

Fiscal conservatism can be great, but not if people are ignorant about the legal restrictions that already prevent the municipal government from straying into the fiscal messes that provincial/federal governments regularly find themselves in. The problems are different!
 
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Sure, but open question to the more conservative types: what programs would you cut in 2012 to produce significant savings?

Be realistic. None of this "I'd contract out transit!" stuff because that's not workable for 2012, nor can you realistically modify existing collective agreements.

I'd advocate the Chretien/Martin approach: cut x% across the board by department, then cut the police (instead of military) by 2time x%. Diversify the tax base by adding a GST-like tax if you could persuade the overlords to allow it.
 
Diversify the tax base by adding a GST-like tax if you could persuade the overlords to allow it.
A city sales tax has serious problems -- because it would be in a relatively small geographic area, it would be easy to avoid (e.g., just drive to Mississauga or Vaughan). A sales tax is also regressive, especially so in this case because the people who can't easily avoid it are those with limited mobility, in other words, those of less means.

It would make more sense to bring back the vehicle tax -- that is far less regressive, and also is more directly related to city services (e.g., streets are cleared and repaired because of cars). There may be other revenue streams related more to city services.
 
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