Rob Ford's Toronto

[tkip]

You've commented previously that most of your co-workers don't believe in same-sex marriage.

When inquiries have been made to you of what kind of business, and roughly what part of the city, where it is acceptable to discriminate against gays, you've dodged the question. Perhaps your workplace is in City Hall, and you only talk to those in Mayor Ford's office? LOL!

And yet your your implausible workplace appears again - now with many openly gay people (who don't seem to be bothered that the majority of their co-workers have more rights than they do!).

Oh, nfitz. Nothing ever satisfies you. Unless you get your way completely, you make demands of others bending to your vision on how society should be.

I commented on that a good portion of my friends and co-workers believe in marriage between men and women. Many though are actually indifferent to the whole thing. And now you're suggesting that my openly gay co-workers and friends are deluded and don't see themselves as victims? There is no limit to the ridiculous trite you spit out in your posts.

Besides the marriage issue, how exactly are gay people oppressed in our society these days? And details of my personal life are none of your freaking business, you stalker.

 

[adma]

Right now, I'm revisiting my original observation that a Mayor Ford would, in practice, be much like "bad black mayors" a la Detroit's Coleman Young, i.e. premising his appeal on a tinpot anti-whitey-elite base (in this case, "whitey" being more "Stuff White People Like"). And nothing I've seen has changed my opinion--and I can certainly see a modern-day Coleman Young portraying Pride as some kind of whitey-elite depravity...

 

[nfitz]

And details of my personal life are none of your freaking business, you stalker.

The details certainly aren't. However when you start using your workplace as an example that discrimination against gays is common and acceptable among the workers. I never asked for your address ... your city. Just general. Farmer in Haldimand. An Etobicoke car dealership. Not sure the big deal ... you've previously posted exactly were you work more than once ... didn't think it was a secret - I was trying to get you to introduce what you'd previously posted back into the discussion yourself, so that you wouldn't accuse me of being a stalker ... so much for that strategy.

And how exactly are gay people oppressed in our society these days? That's off-topic really ... you must be kidding yourself if you don't think it doesn't ever happen.

In Rob Ford's Toronto ... we have the mayor trying to tell us homosexuality is a choice. Which is just absurd.

 

[tkip]

The details certainly aren't. However when you start using your workplace as an example that discrimination against gays is common and acceptable among the workers. I never asked for your address ... your city. Just general. Farmer in Haldimand. An Etobicoke car dealership. Not sure the big deal ... you've previously posted exactly were you work more than once ... didn't think it was a secret - I was trying to get you to introduce what you'd previously posted back into the discussion yourself, so that you wouldn't accuse me of being a stalker ... so much for that strategy.

And how exactly are gay people oppressed in our society these days? That's off-topic really ... you must be kidding yourself if you don't think it doesn't ever happen.

In Rob Ford's Toronto ... we have the mayor trying to tell us homosexuality is a choice. Which is just absurd.

If you already knew I worked and lived in Toronto, then why this game? Asking for examples of gays being oppressed with the exception of marriage is very much on topic here.

I live in Toronto. I have hundreds of co-workers. I work with many immigrants and people of immigrant families. I have several openly gay co-workers. Many are very smart and vocal individuals. None of my gay co-workers walk around acting as victims. No one singles them out and they get along with everyone just fine.

I notice you keep harping on gays being badly mistreated in this city. Yet you never focus this same attention to other groups that get treated differently and sometimes, much worse.

Strangely, the suggestion that gays are this group of oppressed and badly mistreated people seems oblivious to my co-workers and gay friends of mine. I want you to provide me with detailed reports of systematic evictions, firings, beatings and mass murders of gay people in Toronto currently.

I'll be waiting for your report that finally proves gays in Toronto are the worse treated group of people and that Ford is the devil himself....

 

[Jonny5]

Besides the marriage issue, how exactly are gay people oppressed in our society these days?

A very ignorant statement, but not unexpected. The media has given a very distorted perception of acceptance that doesn't reflect reality.

Two years ago I was a "rising star" in my small company. Then I came out. Everything changed that day. I was pulled aside a few weeks later and told in no uncertain terms that I should leave because there was no longer a place for "someone like you in this firm".

I did leave and my career took several steps backwards as a result. I thought just the way you did, that gays are accepted by everyone and Toronto is a progressive city. It isn't always like that. I fell into quite a deep depression because of this and it took quite a toll on me. Just in the past few months I have finally made it back to where I was in my career, but as a much stronger and wiser man. However, even where I am now, as an out gay man (who, by my own judgement, is very conservative, even more than my straight co-workers), it has come up as an issue, cloaked in the usual metaphors. My manager recently reminded me that "this is a conservative company and if you want to advance your career, you need to conform". She didn't say this with malice but with insight. She is more left thinking than I am, but knows how Bay Street culture from her own experience breaking in to it as a woman who took an executive position in the 80's.

The Globe published an article a few years back headlined "It's okay to be gay on Bay". I beg to differ.

 

[tkip]

I am sorry this happened to you but.....

It never ocured to you of going to the labour board or the human rights tribunal and filing a complaint? At my work and that of my friends, you couldn't possibly single out a gay person, deny them a promotion, threaten discipline AND make a comment along the lines of "your type" doesn't really fit in here. There'd be a investigation fast.

But I can tell you it goes both ways. Several years ago I rented out a room in my 2 bedroom apartment to this openly gay man. However, once living there he proceeded to make life hell. Had no respect for boundaries, violated my privacy on multiple occasions but his biggest thing was making endless comments about "breeders" and his woes in life.

Now we all know that the term "breeders" is not a positive one. Yet this clown thought it acceptable to throw this in my face every chance he got and tried turning every topic into the plight of gays and how straights were evil. It got to the point that one of my gay friends called him a colossal fraud and asshole.

This roommate was a failure in life, a loser and he choose instead to blame everyone else, but especially straights for his problems.

And since we're on the topic of discrimination. As a white man I can actually state that I was targeted at my work based on my race and skin colour. I was talked to in a certain manner by several black women to the point I knew it wasn't my imagination and talked to my friend, a woman of colour and she confirmed my suspicions. But proving this to HR wasn't plausible.

The worst offenders in a workplace from my experience are women. Their grudges and shit they cause using the system to punish those they have an issue with is staggering here.

 

[to_l]

I want you to provide me with detailed reports of systematic evictions, firings, beatings and mass murders of gay people in Toronto currently.

There's Ben Lester for one.

 

[Jonny5]

I am sorry this happened to you but.....

I it never occured to you of going to the labour board or the human rights tribunal and filing a complaint? At my work and that of my friends, you couldn't possibly single out a gay person, deny them a promotion, threaten discipline AND make a comment along the lines of "your type" doesn't really fit in here. In the past, yes.

Total ignorance. I'm supposed to go to Barbara Hall and whine about an undocumented conversation? What's she gonna do? Flap her gums and make threatening grunts? I work in an industry that can call up McGuinty and have her entire operation closed the next day.

The rest of what you wrote explains everything else you have written in this thread. You think we're all the same.
I have nothing more to say to you EDIT: in this thread.

 

[nfitz]

I notice you keep harping on gays being badly mistreated in this city. Yet you never focus this same attention to other groups that get treated differently and sometimes, much worse.

Because this thread is about Rob Ford. I've seen no evidence that Rob Ford is prejudiced against any other group.

I've spoken out about other groups being discriminated against in other threads. And no one disagrees. Hence there is not much discussion. It's only in this thread that people jump to Rob Ford's defence, and justify that it is okay to discriminate against gays.

Your the one who claims that not only is it okay to discriminate against gays, that most of your co-workers agree with you. Personally, I believe that although your close friends and family might share your prejudice, that your co-workers are likely merely nodding politely ... at least those who don't quickly scurry home to Caledon and Orangeville, convinced that Toronto is the cesspool of evil.

 

[tkip]

Because this thread is about Rob Ford. I've seen no evidence that Rob Ford is prejudiced against any other group.

I've spoken out about other groups being discriminated against in other threads. And no one disagrees. Hence there is not much discussion. It's only in this thread that people jump to Rob Ford's defence, and justify that it is okay to discriminate against gays.

Your the one who claims that not only is it okay to discriminate against gays, that most of your co-workers agree with you. Personally, I believe that although your close friends and family might share your prejudice, that your co-workers are likely merely nodding politely ... at least those who don't quickly scurry home to Caledon and Orangeville, convinced that Toronto is the cesspool of evil.

Really? You say it's only about Ford and gays but you've made comments previously about Ford hating immigrants and women too. And you somehow forgot you had said this and now it's only about Ford and gays?

 

[tkip]

Because this thread is about Rob Ford. I've seen no evidence that Rob Ford is prejudiced against any other group.

I've spoken out about other groups being discriminated against in other threads. And no one disagrees. Hence there is not much discussion. It's only in this thread that people jump to Rob Ford's defence, and justify that it is okay to discriminate against gays.

Your the one who claims that not only is it okay to discriminate against gays, that most of your co-workers agree with you. Personally, I believe that although your close friends and family might share your prejudice, that your co-workers are likely merely nodding politely ... at least those who don't quickly scurry home to Caledon and Orangeville, convinced that Toronto is the cesspool of evil.

nfitz. You're living in a fantasy world. You really are.

I never claimed that it's okay to discriminate though each and every one of us does this occasionally whether we realize it or not. Because this is human nature. We're tribal creatures. Our entire recorded history is this. All we've done in recent times is drive everyone's prejudices underground. As a friend told me the other day on this very matter of tolerance..... We only tolerate.

We still don't actually like each other. We just play nice but when times get rough, people turn on each other.

 

[nfitz]

Really? You say it's only about Ford and gays but you've made comments previously about Ford hating immigrants and women too. And you somehow forgot you had said this and now it's only about Ford and gays?

I don't believe that any of those issues have come to light in his time as Mayor. If he kept his prejudices buried while serving the public, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I never claimed that it's okay to discriminate ...

Yes you did. You clearly said that it's okay to discriminate against gays - that you didn't support their right to marriage.

All we've done in recent times is drive everyone's prejudices underground.

I don't believe that. For those people who are prejudiced against gays and ethnic groups, it may well have driven them underground. But I don't believe for a second that the majority of the population is prejudiced.

 

[cdr108]

A very ignorant statement, but not unexpected. The media has given a very distorted perception of acceptance that doesn't reflect reality.

Two years ago I was a "rising star" in my small company. Then I came out. Everything changed that day. I was pulled aside a few weeks later and told in no uncertain terms that I should leave because there was no longer a place for "someone like you in this firm".

I did leave and my career took several steps backwards as a result. I thought just the way you did, that gays are accepted by everyone and Toronto is a progressive city. It isn't always like that. I fell into quite a deep depression because of this and it took quite a toll on me. Just in the past few months I have finally made it back to where I was in my career, but as a much stronger and wiser man. However, even where I am now, as an out gay man (who, by my own judgement, is very conservative, even more than my straight co-workers), it has come up as an issue, cloaked in the usual metaphors. My manager recently reminded me that "this is a conservative company and if you want to advance your career, you need to conform". She didn't say this with malice but with insight. She is more left thinking than I am, but knows how Bay Street culture from her own experience breaking in to it as a woman who took an executive position in the 80's.

The Globe published an article a few years back headlined "It's okay to be gay on Bay". I beg to differ.

it's definitely not ok to be gay on Bay ...
maybe on Wall St in NYC or "the City / The Square Mile" in London UK if one was 'the Golden Boy' making multi-million $$$ deals, otherwise the financial industry is very conservative .

I am sorry this happened to you but.....

It never ocured to you of going to the labour board or the human rights tribunal and filing a complaint? At my work and that of my friends, you couldn't possibly single out a gay person, deny them a promotion, threaten discipline AND make a comment along the lines of "your type" doesn't really fit in here. There'd be a investigation fast.

But I can tell you it goes both ways. Several years ago I rented out a room in my 2 bedroom apartment to this openly gay man. However, once living there he proceeded to make life hell. Had no respect for boundaries, violated my privacy on multiple occasions but his biggest thing was making endless comments about "breeders" and his woes in life.

Now we all know that the term "breeders" is not a positive one. Yet this clown thought it acceptable to throw this in my face every chance he got and tried turning every topic into the plight of gays and how straights were evil. It got to the point that one of my gay friends called him a colossal fraud and asshole.

This roommate was a failure in life, a loser and he choose instead to blame everyone else, but especially straights for his problems.

And since we're on the topic of discrimination. As a white man I can actually state that I was targeted at my work based on my race and skin colour. I was talked to in a certain manner by several black women to the point I knew it wasn't my imagination and talked to my friend, a woman of colour and she confirmed my suspicions. But proving this to HR wasn't plausible.

The worst offenders in a workplace from my experience are women. Their grudges and shit they cause using the system to punish those they have an issue with is staggering here.

sure he could have made a complaint, and like you said, proving it to HR is difficult.
bring it up to Human Rights Commission and guaranteed to be black-listed in the industry ...
it's very small and very much still part of 'the old boys club' - and not in the gay way.

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

Some questions and definitely criticisms but mass anger sweeping the city?

I find it hard to believe that people are suggesting that Ford skipping out on Pride will cause some massive backlash in the general electorate. No one at my work seems particularly upset with this and I work with a lot of people. Different racial/ethnic backgrounds and many openly gay people. I'm not hearing any real backlash.

Now, I agree that he should have put an appearance in since he is the mayor but he also skipped out on the Canada Day celebrations too from what I've heard and no one on this board seems up with this. Why not? There's definitely a double standard being applied here and some are being very selective about how they're criticising Ford.

If you want to criticize Ford for skipping one event then you have to criticize him for skipping all events. Events which have just as much significance as Pride. Criticize Ford on his lack of real vision for the city too if you want. I agree that outside of cuts, Ford seems baffled about culture and transit. And criticize as well his quick temper and dismissive nature at times.

But certain people here and elsewhere aren't interested in this. They want all the criticisms to revolve entirely around the gay issue.

I think behind the scenes someone decided that since there's open hostility in the gay community and several have accused Ford of being homophobic, then what was the point in attending any Pride event? What would have happened is that the Ford haters would have accused him of faking and trying to cosy up to the gay community while hiding his homophobia.

But that's just my interpretation of the whole thing.

I never suggested mass anger sweeping the city - hardly!. Those who I've spoke to about the whole Pride thing who are gay or supporters (I don't talk politics at work) are mostly mixed about the parade, but the real anger comes from skipping every Pride week event. This is a human rights issue, and yes - he should have been at Canada Day celebrations somewhere too. Again, it's his job.
I've other complaints about Ford but I don't have enough time to type my grievances today, suffice to say I'm not a supporter.

 

[tkip]

I don't believe that any of those issues have come to light in his time as Mayor. If he kept his prejudices buried while serving the public, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Yes you did. You clearly said that it's okay to discriminate against gays - that you didn't support their right to marriage.

I don't believe that. For those people who are prejudiced against gays and ethnic groups, it may well have driven them underground. But I don't believe for a second that the majority of the population is prejudiced.

Because believing that marriage is between men and women is an opinion. This doesn't mean discrimination.

How do I treat gay people differently? When I have my quiet, private thoughts on marriage, how do I mistreat and oppress gays? What we're really talking about here are the thought police. And absolutely we've driven most of our prejudices underground but they're still there. Are people living in a bubble or something?

Listen to private conversations, listen in on different groups of people and will you see/hear/read a mountain of material regarding how people really feel about each other.