Rob Ford's Toronto

[44 North]

So, is this a conspiracy theory you came up with yourself, or is it someone else's idea? You really think there's someone deciding to side with new immigrants rather than our own citizens? What purpose would it serve? Who would agree to take this job? I'd like to see the proof of this claim.

I believe it's correct. People claiming refugee status and landing at Pearson automatically receive housing - ahead of others on the waiting list. They also receive two welfare cheques instead of the customary one for everybody else. Countries worldwide are taking complete advantage of this system and offering courses on what to say. We literally have flights landing daily with almost the entire roster of passengers claiming the exact same stories. Whether it's Roma from Bulgaria or Romania, or people in seemingly okay countries like Namibia. We have to accept them and offer housing ahead of others who've lived here their whole lives.

 

[Don Mount]

So a $300,000+ luxury apartment on the waterfront is now considered a "basic" of life?

Let's look a bit deeper at the numbers. The overall cost per unit would be an average of $300k based on $22.5 million divided by 75 units. At that price, they are paying at the very bottom end of family sized condo prices accross the city, a bargain. This includes an average of $200k per unit from the federal and provincial government, and another $100,000 per unit capital investment by the co-op corporation that will run it (mortgage covered by rents). A 200k investment from the government isn't too steep to house an additional family, keeping in mind those who rent it do not actually own it and the capital will continue to support the unit for many decades to come. Why would the mayor of a city with such a large backlog in housing oppose this funding when no other alternative is on the table?

Can you help me understand what kind of housing you believe is more basic than an apartment (regardless of what structure it is contained in).

you don't need to see studies - you can see it with your own eyes! Walk around Regent Park and you will notice that many if not most residents are recently arrived "refugees"

How can you determine whether someone is a refugee by looking at them on the street? Regent Park is hardly the only affordable housing in the city, and the demographics change based on the area of the city, so using the people you see on the sidewalks of Dundas St. East is a far cry from having real data on the demographic of people who use affordable housing.

We are told that there is a ten year waiting list for TCHC housing and yet the city can find accommodation for recent arrivals who have no connection to Toronto? We know that there are 10,000's of needy and deserving disabled and elderly Canadians on a ten year waiting list for affordable housing. Many will die before getting placed in decent accommodation. They should be our number one priority!

This is a CO-OP, not subsidized housing as the TCHC (other than the initial investment). Co-ops operate under a completely different system and they are designed in a way that the residents carry the entire cost of living, but keep rent as minimal as possible by eliminating the profit associated with a landlord-tenant relationship. There is no queue-jumping here, as Toronto Community Housing applicants would likely not be able to afford these units due to the higher level of subsidization required. This is meant to provide working families with an affordable place to live in an area where the population is slanted much too far towards the single, high income demographic. This benefits the city greatly, whether your ideology conforms or not.

 

[Torontovibe]

I know so many people that preach the importance of mixed communities and affordable housing right up until it's time to send their kids to school in these mixed income schools. Then they are out of there so fast it ain't funny. Put your kids where your mouth is. Send your middle class kids to a school in that's a mix of poor and well off then we'll talk. Or buy a condo in one of these buildings and watch it not appreciate as your friend's downtown condo. Then we'll talk.

A lot of people that are all for mixed income communities don't practice what they preach. They aren't willing to bet their own investment in a home or their kids in the experiment.

So why is it working in Regent Park?

 

[ThinkRicky]

Good Stuff

Thank you very much for eloquently repsonding to what basically amounts to "No! The Other is stealing our stuff!"

 

[SockPuppet]

I believe it's correct. People claiming refugee status and landing at Pearson automatically receive housing - ahead of others on the waiting list. They also receive two welfare cheques instead of the customary one for everybody else. Countries worldwide are taking complete advantage of this system and offering courses on what to say. We literally have flights landing daily with almost the entire roster of passengers claiming the exact same stories. Whether it's Roma from Bulgaria or Romania, or people in seemingly okay countries like Namibia. We have to accept them and offer housing ahead of others who've lived here their whole lives.

Citation needed

 

[44 North]

Citation needed

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/03/21/17704561.html
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/04/by-the-numbers-hungarian-refugee-claims-at-pearson-airport/
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/26/video-refugee-influx-at-pearson
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/1...n-asylum-seekers-landing-on-canadas-doorstep/

In the meantime, refugee claimants are eligible for Interim Federal Health benefits — including emergency treatment for serious medical and dental conditions, immunizations, essential prescription drugs, contraception, and pre-natal care — as well as provincial assistance and education for their children.
...
Sandy Mangat, a spokesperson for the Ontario Ministry of Community and Social Services, said refugee claimants in Canada are eligible for various levels of assistance, as is true of all other applicants. A single Hungarian Roma, for example, would be eligible for a maximum of $592 monthly for basic needs and shelter, while a sole parent with one child under 12 or a couple with two children under 12 are eligible for $922 and $1,124 respectively.

If you live in TO, chances are you've met many. It's a fairly common means of getting into the country.

 

[Peepers]

While they exist in a building with luxury apartments, the TCHC owned ones will not be "luxury"; they will be maintained strictly by the TCHC; not the condo corporation.

These units may not come with granite counter-tops and Stainless Steel appliances (although who knows) but by most definitions I am sure they would be considered luxurious.

a) Anecdote is not proof.

I am stating my opinions based on my observations and anecdotes. Of course it's not "proof" but prove me wrong!

b) Many immigrants are highly educated, but their degrees or experience are not recognized here, so they're forced to work low-paying jobs that previously only caucasian teens would take, and thus can only afford low-income housing.

I don't dispute that many immigrants are highly educated - probably lots of refugees as well

c) Calling immigrants "refugees" is insulting and bigoted.

What makes you think that when I speak of "refugees" I am referring to all immigrants? Obviously there is a big distinction between and economic immigrant and refugee. I'm not being "bigoted" and "insulting".

d) The entirety of Canada took in a grand total of 5,412 refugees last year (http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-took-fewer-refugees-last-year-despite-pledge-1.1366888).

Wrong. That is not the total number - just the number sponsored by the federal government (don't rely on the CBC for accurate and unbiased information). In 2013 Canada admitted over 23,000 refugees http://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...leased-canada-remains-one-most-235820655.html
[/quote]

There are countries with FAAAAAR better social services. Most of Northern Europe comes to mind.

I am well aware of this. Norway and Sweden are preferred destinations! South of the border Minnesota is a popular destination. When it comes to lists of "preferred destinations" this is not one that we want to be on the top of! [/quote]

From this (http://library.queensu.ca/ojs/index.php/surveillance-and-society/article/download/deviants/deviants) Queen's University article:

What a bogus study! This line jumped out at me

"Welfare fraud rates have been said to be as low as (0.1%)27 yet still millions of dollars are spent in
deterring and criminalizing, often wrongly, those on OW."

There is no way that fraud rates are as low as 0.1% !

So, is this a conspiracy theory you came up with yourself, or is it someone else's idea? You really think there's someone deciding to side with new immigrants rather than our own citizens? What purpose would it serve? Who would agree to take this job? I'd like to see the proof of this claim.

It's not a "conspiracy theory" [a term used to discredit ideas] just my opinion based on observations and anecdotes.

 

[SockPuppet]

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2011/03/21/17704561.html
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/11/04/by-the-numbers-hungarian-refugee-claims-at-pearson-airport/
http://www.torontosun.com/2011/10/26/video-refugee-influx-at-pearson
http://news.nationalpost.com/2011/1...n-asylum-seekers-landing-on-canadas-doorstep/

In the meantime, refugee claimants are eligible for Interim Federal Health benefits — including emergency treatment for serious medical and dental conditions, immunizations, essential prescription drugs, contraception, and pre-natal care — as well as provincial assistance and education for their children.
...
Sandy Mangat, a spokesperson for the Ontario Ministry of Community and Social Services, said refugee claimants in Canada are eligible for various levels of assistance, as is true of all other applicants. A single Hungarian Roma, for example, would be eligible for a maximum of $592 monthly for basic needs and shelter, while a sole parent with one child under 12 or a couple with two children under 12 are eligible for $922 and $1,124 respectively.

If you live in TO, chances are you've met many. It's a fairly common means of getting into the country.

First, all the articles you posted are from 2011. If you had any more updated sources to back up your statement that we have daily occurrences of flights landing comprised entirely of people making refugee claims it might be a little more helpful.

Second, the numbers given in the articles are frankly not that high. The record high was 110 Roma in one day. While that certainly is a lot for a single airport in a single day, it is by no means representative of the traffic coming in.

Third, as posted earlier in the thread, the entirety of Canada took in just over 5000 refugees last year. Thats hardly a huge number, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Canadians taking advantage of the social systems we have setup.

Your entire argument is a non-issue. Should we just kick these people out on the street to die when they arrive?

 

[Peepers]

I believe it's correct. People claiming refugee status and landing at Pearson automatically receive housing - ahead of others on the waiting list. They also receive two welfare cheques instead of the customary one for everybody else. Countries worldwide are taking complete advantage of this system and offering courses on what to say. We literally have flights landing daily with almost the entire roster of passengers claiming the exact same stories. Whether it's Roma from Bulgaria or Romania, or people in seemingly okay countries like Namibia. We have to accept them and offer housing ahead of others who've lived here their whole lives.

Great post! What you have described (and have provided citations for below) is the reality! 10,000's of needy and deserving disabled and elderly Canadians are on ten year waiting lists for affordable housing and yet somehow we can provide this and more to anyone arriving at Pearson claiming refugee status? What is wrong with this country? What happened to our priorities?

 

[Palma]

First, all the articles you posted are from 2011. If you had any more updated sources to back up your statement that we have daily occurrences of flights landing comprised entirely of people making refugee claims it might be a little more helpful.

Second, the numbers given in the articles are frankly not that high. The record high was 110 Roma in one day. While that certainly is a lot for a single airport in a single day, it is by no means representative of the traffic coming in.

Third, as posted earlier in the thread, the entirety of Canada took in just over 5000 refugees last year. Thats hardly a huge number, and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if there were more Canadians taking advantage of the social systems we have setup.

Your entire argument is a non-issue. Should we just kick these people out on the street to die when they arrive?

Its ridiculous that they want some of those units on the waterfront for social housing. What incentive is that for someone to "better themselves" or to get off social assistance? Social housing should be a temporary measure not a 10 or 20 year lifestyle.

 

[voxpopulicosmicum]

I smell a serious thread derailment in the form of a classic OT-Ford-Nation-blame-the-poor-and-the-immigrants argument. Just an observation.

 

[Peepers]

First, all the articles you posted are from 2011. If you had any more updated sources to back up your statement that we have daily occurrences of flights landing comprised entirely of people making refugee claims it might be a little more helpful.

Do you really believe that 2011 was an aberration?

Second, the numbers given in the articles are frankly not that high. The record high was 110 Roma in one day. While that certainly is a lot for a single airport in a single day, it is by no means representative of the traffic coming in.

"frankly not that high"? 110 people arriving at Pearson IN ONE DAY for whom we have to find accommodation and other social services?

Third, as posted earlier in the thread, the entirety of Canada took in just over 5000 refugees last year. Thats hardly a huge number

I debunked the 5000 figure above. It is actually 23,000!

Your entire argument is a non-issue. Should we just kick these people out on the street to die when they arrive?

No we shouldn't "just kick these people out on the street to die when they arrive" (that would be inhumane ). What we should do is put them back on the next flight to where they came from.

 

[Peepers]

I smell a serious thread derailment in the form of a classic OT-Ford-Nation-blame-the-poor-and-the-immigrants argument. Just an observation.

How is this a "thread derailment" ? This thread is about Mayor Ford. Today Mayor Ford came out against public housing on the waterfront (as part of a luxury condo developement). We are having an on topic debate on the pros and cons of Mayor Fords stated position.

 

[nfitz]

The last time Pam McConnell was involved in negotiations like this with developers she scored a "Suite" deal on one of the largest and most desirable units in the new Regent Park development according to the Toronto SUN.

I don't know much about McConnell, but from this I assume she isn't a Tory then!

She purchased a publicly available unit at at-market prices, for which there was no waiting list or shortage of units. How is there anything wrong with this?

And how do we know she's not a Tory? Because we recently discovered that Tory councillors pay below-market rates to developers.

Not sure what all this has to do with the wife-beating crack-smoking bigot though ...

 

[milkywaymusings]

So a $300,000+ luxury apartment on the waterfront is now considered a "basic" of life?

It is this type of one-dimensional thinking that landed us with a Mayor like Ford. When did 'the economy'--an intangible social construct--become a trump card to the exclusion of any competing experiential category? When did abstract, decontextualized financial metrics become the sole criterion through which public policy is created? What's more, these are metrics which seldom impact upon individual lives as much as the eventual cuts justified through their invocation.

When did it become fashionable to define oneself almost entirely in relation to period transactions with the CRA (i.e. 'taxpayers')? Fuck everything about the plutocratic sensibilities embodied within these trends