Rob Ford's Toronto

[guitarchitect]

I may disagree with the Sun, particularly in its OP-Ed writers, but I don't think the Sun is capable of fabricating stories out of thin air to serve a right wing political agenda.

Agreed - that's "pure" tabloid territory and as much as I dislike The Sun, they aren't that insane. None of the newspapers are that insane, no matter how much you might dislike their style or how they choose to frame stories

 

[ttk77]

Agreed - that's "pure" tabloid territory and as much as I dislike The Sun, they aren't that insane. None of the newspapers are that insane, no matter how much you might dislike their style or how they choose to frame stories

There are a number of people on here who refer to The Sun as a tabloid. A number who have in the past (jokingly or not) said that they won't "dirty themselves" by clicking on links to Sun articles. It has been pointed out that because they withdrew from the press council that they no longer have any credibility nor any requirement to print the truth. My point is that Ford supporters see The Star as a tabloid and not to be trusted. Asking them to consider whether or not The Star would risk its credibility and reputation on printing articles about fake crack videos when they think it has no reputation or credibility is pointless.

 

[LowPolygon]

Why we hold media watchdogs to account: Ontario Press Council

http://www.thestar.com/opinion/colu...tchdogs_to_account_ontario_press_council.html

"Why is the Ontario Press Council putting the recent high-profile reporting on Toronto Mayor Rob Ford and his brother, Toronto Councillor Doug Ford, under a public microscope?"

 

[OSS 117]

There are a number of people on here who refer to The Sun as a tabloid. A number who have in the past (jokingly or not) said that they won't "dirty themselves" by clicking on links to Sun articles. It has been pointed out that because they withdrew from the press council that they no longer have any credibility nor any requirement to print the truth. My point is that Ford supporters see The Star as a tabloid and not to be trusted. Asking them to consider whether or not The Star would risk its credibility and reputation on printing articles about fake crack videos when they think it has no reputation or credibility is pointless.

Well, the Sun is literally a tabloid. That's their format, and they present an easy-to-read, populist take on current events, just like most other papers in that shape, like the New York Post and whatnot.

 

[Marko]

There are a number of people on here who refer to The Sun as a tabloid.

It technically is a tabloid, if you're referring to the format of the paper. The Star and Globe are printed in broadsheet format.

They are not a "tabloid" in the sense of being a gossip rag you buy at the cash register, who also happen to use the same tabloid printing format.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tabloid_(newspaper_format)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadsheet


In terms of the Star - I don't think they would fabricate anything themselves - but I do think that in their zeal to take down Ford in any way possible, that they would want to believe things that someone else may have fabricated, or choose to present the stories in a manner to be damaging, rather than simply presenting facts. Much like the Sun (I try to read both), they have a narrative they want to push, though the Sun is a bit more honest about having a bias and because of this, more willingly includes opposing views to be included (Warren Kinsella, Sheila Copps, Sid Ryan, etc...) for balance. The Star tries to paint itself as impartial and thus ethically superior, but it's really not. The writing is of a higher quality a lot of the time, but they have just as many shrill mouthpieces as the Sun.

 

[toraerach]

From The Guardian:

How to make a drug confession without scaring the electorate

(...)

Ford has been accused of using racist language, driving drunk, driving dangerously, voting on an issue in council that he had financial stakes in and harassing a woman. Like Silvio Berlusconi and our own dear Boris Johnson, Ford has played the fool and kept people focused on the tawdry details of his personal life. If the public has their eyes on the soap opera, they might just ignore the behaviour that will really hurt them. Ford, like Johnson and Berlusconi, becomes just another lovable clown.

He misses the Trudeau context, but hits the nail on the head with this one. There's something about Ford's confession that just smacks of a teen bragging about his pot use to peers.

 

[guitarchitect]

There are a number of people on here who refer to The Sun as a tabloid. A number who have in the past (jokingly or not) said that they won't "dirty themselves" by clicking on links to Sun articles. It has been pointed out that because they withdrew from the press council that they no longer have any credibility nor any requirement to print the truth.

Just because they say it, it doesn't mean it's true. And just because the Sun isn't part of the OPC, it doesn't mean they print blatant lies. Have there been any stories that The Sun has reported on where they took an opposing (and falsifiable) stance to other newspapers? Have they invented any stories out of thin air to drag anyone's name through the mud? The laws on libel are pretty strict in Canada, and no media organization is going to go out and just make shit up - no matter their political leanings, they're aren't going to open themselves up to constant litigation by printing false information under the guise of news. Tabloids get away with a lot because they clearly state inside the paper that it's "for entertainment purposes only".

Don't get me wrong - I dislike the Sun as much as a lot of people here do. And I don't necessarily agree with the editorial angle they sometimes take. But that doesn't make them blatant, fact-altering liars.

For what it's worth, the OPC itself states that it doesn't go anywhere near anything that's an Opinion - so Rosie Dimanno or Christopher Hume or Margaret Wente or Royson James can espouse an "opinion" that flies in the face of common sense or fact, and the OPC won't touch it with a ten foot pole. So even if The Sun was part of the OPC, they still wouldn't go near Sue Ann Levy.

Well, the Sun is literally a tabloid. That's their format

It technically is a tabloid, if you're referring to the format of the paper.

Oh come on guys, nobody goes around saying "Hey, what broadsheets do you read? I like the Globe and Mail" - so it's a bit silly to call the Sun a tabloid and then justify it because of the sheet size. We all know that the colloquial definition refers to a gossip and/or "entertainment"-based newspaper, and it's used perjoratively. This is pedantic to the point of absurdity, and it's the exact kind of logic that the "Jack Layton and Olivia lived in subsidized housing while making $100,000/year!" crowd uses.

If you want to be consistent, better start referring to The Independent and The Times as tabloids, and see where that gets you...

 

[ttk77]

Well, the Sun is literally a tabloid. That's their format, and they present an easy-to-read, populist take on current events, just like most other papers in that shape, like the New York Post and whatnot.

I understand the difference in physical format, but when called a tabloid in the same breath (keystroke?) as being labelled untrustworthy (see press council withdrawal) I doubt the format is what they're referring to.

 

[ttk77]

Just because they say it, it doesn't mean it's true. And just because the Sun isn't part of the OPC, it doesn't mean they print blatant lies. Have there been any stories that The Sun has reported on where they took an opposing (and falsifiable) stance to other newspapers? Have they invented any stories out of thin air to drag anyone's name through the mud? The laws on libel are pretty strict in Canada, and no media organization is going to go out and just make shit up - no matter their political leanings, they're aren't going to open themselves up to constant litigation by printing false information under the guise of news. Tabloids get away with a lot because they clearly state inside the paper that it's "for entertainment purposes only".

Don't get me wrong - I dislike the Sun as much as a lot of people here do. And I don't necessarily agree with the editorial angle they sometimes take. But that doesn't make them blatant, fact-altering liars.

For what it's worth, the OPC itself states that it doesn't go anywhere near anything that's an Opinion - so Rosie Dimanno or Christopher Hume or Margaret Wente or Royson James can espouse an "opinion" that flies in the face of common sense or fact, and the OPC won't touch it with a ten foot pole. So even if The Sun was part of the OPC, they still wouldn't go near Sue Ann Levy.

I am not calling the Sun a tabloid (in the gossip rag sense). All I've done is point out what others have indicated, and they do not necessarily reflect my own views. The point of the argument has been completely lost in this debate on the Sun's trustworthiness and maybe it's my fault for bringing up the newspaper to begin with. It's your point here that I was trying to debate:

I just want to tell them all and stop to think, for one second, about how much the Star stands to lose if it's demonstrated that they faked the entire thing (complete loss of reputation amongst readers, loss of credibility from other papers and everyone else) - and then ask them why the hell they would take that chance.

What's the point in asking them to consider The Star's credibility when they think it doesn't have any, and when they think that us "lefties" will believe whatever it prints no matter how false.

 

[guitarchitect]

What's the point in asking them to consider The Star's credibility when they think it doesn't have any, and when they think that us "lefties" will believe whatever it prints no matter how false.

then replace "The Star" with "any newspaper in Canada"... that was my point - mentioning The Sun was to say that even The Sun wouldn't do it.

if Any Newspaper in Canada invented a story to drag someone's name through the mud, it wouldn't just be other newspapers crying foul. It would be everybody - and that would bring down an entire newspaper. I don't have an all-encompassing knowledge but, I don't really remember a major story that was ever completely fabricated by a non-tabloid (not referring to page size guys) newspaper... does anyone know of such a thing ever happening, in Canada?

EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about investigative journalism stories - not simply getting a fact or two wrong. For anyone looking for an interesting show to watch - this season of "The Newsroom" actually deals with this.

 

[ttk77]

then replace "The Star" with "any newspaper in Canada"... that was my point - mentioning The Sun was to say that even The Sun wouldn't do it.

if Any Newspaper in Canada invented a story to drag someone's name through the mud, it wouldn't just be other newspapers crying foul. It would be everybody - and that would bring down an entire newspaper. I don't have an all-encompassing knowledge but, I don't really remember a major story that was ever completely fabricated by a non-tabloid (not referring to page size guys) newspaper... does anyone know of such a thing ever happening, in Canada?

But you're talking from a rational perspective. Ford supporters think The Star is out to get him at any cost. They either think that those who don't support Ford will either believe anything the Star prints or believe that they support the Star printing lies. There is very much an "if you're not with us you're against us" perspective in Ford Nation, perpetuated by Ford himself. If you don't praise the leader you're a red commie....just see his reaction to the Globe story about Doug.

 

[soimelk]

In terms of the Star - I don't think they would fabricate anything themselves - but I do think that in their zeal to take down Ford in any way possible, that they would want to believe things that someone else may have fabricated, or choose to present the stories in a manner to be damaging, rather than simply presenting facts.

People are always mentioning the Star's 'zeal' in going after Ford, as if it were a bad thing for a paper to do good investigative journalism. In the case of the crack video and all the other revelations stemming from it, I struggle to see evidence that the Star presented the information in a biased way. How else do you report that he was filmed smoking crack and making homophobic slurs? In the case of Ford, his behaviour is so incorrigible that embellishment by a the Star would not be necessary in order to show him to be unfit for public office.

In fact, I've noticed the Star has been restrained in its reporting of the Ford scandal. With the revelations that Ford's driver/dealer/fixer Lisi had thrice been charged with assaulting a woman, it did not take the logical leap in inferring that he most likely would be a pimp. This to me shows that they are trying hard to report that which they can verify with greater certainty.

If they have reported erroneous facts in their "zeal", please indicate which ones those are. Otherwise, the overzealous argument also holds little water in defending Rob Ford and his entourage.

 

[doady]

Oh come on guys, nobody goes around saying "Hey, what broadsheets do you read? I like the Globe and Mail" - so it's a bit silly to call the Sun a tabloid and then justify it because of the sheet size. We all know that the colloquial definition refers to a gossip and/or "entertainment"-based newspaper, and it's used perjoratively.

 

[nfitz]

It technically is a tabloid, if you're referring to the format of the paper. The Star and Globe are printed in broadsheet format.

They are not a "tabloid" in the sense of being a gossip rag you buy at the cash register, who also happen to use the same tabloid printing format.

Not sure what it has to do with stuff like that. When one talks newspaper tabloids, one thinks of the dailies like the Mirror, the (English) Sun, the New York Daily News, the Toronto Sun, etc.

Interesting that none of the more reputable dailies seem to print in Tabloid - though the Evening Standard is perhaps an exception. All I'm aware of are in broadsheet, Berliner, or similar.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Doady:

Let's not forget about the Sun's "Sunshine Girls".