Rob Ford wants subways, not streetcars

[Electrify]

I take it that you didn't read the comments section on the Sun website in regards to this story. They're overwhelmingly in favor of more subways, and for good reason too. The tradeoff must always be made between initial capital costs and long-term savings. Torontonians lose millions of dollars per day in lost productivity due to being stuck in traffic which road-median, mixed-traffic streetcars contribute heavily into.

Several cities, many of which are far more car oriented than Toronto, have had fantastic success with ROW light rail and bus lines. Even if you cannot widen the road and have to invest one lane for transit, that lane can move the capacity of several lanes. My issue with Transit City is with stop spacing too close, so that it will not attract enough choice riders away from driving along arterials and highways.

Also worth noting that many of these same people posting on the Toronto Sun's website are the same people who scream murder at any and all taxes. This also includes Rob Ford. These people want the most expensive transit technology available, yet god forbid they have to fund it (they want the Bear Patrol, but don't want to pay taxes for it )

Why do people insist on this artifical divide between people. All it does is feed stereotyping partisanship. It's easy to support something you'd not fund and doubt anyone else would want to do so. For example, to say you are anti-euthanasia of the handicap would most likely be true. However, does anyone really intend to commit genocide?

It's easy to say "I'm for free icecream for everyone!" I'm about as socialist as they come, but without sound financial plan, it's either going to cost us more money in the long run or it's never take-off in the first place. It doesn't matter level of government does the collecting and spending, we are always the ones that pay in the end.

Assuming you have a crystal ball and can see that it is an empty promise, it is still generally a very liberal position. Even today in many US cities, the debate is over highways and transit rather than which kind of transit. Look up Randy O'Toole if you want to learn more.

 

[urbandreamer]

Well I'm not surprised Rob Ford wants subways--He probably eats tons of them every year.

 

[SlickFranky]

Well I'm not surprised Rob Ford wants subways--He probably eats tons of them every year.

"As promised, I have cancelled Transit City. Enjoy your sandwiches. Oh, you guys thought I meant underground transit? No no no, those things are expensive!"

 

[JWBF]

If, in fact Ford is an idiot, thank you for stepping up to make sure he doesn't have the field all to himself.

In what context Mr. Troll?

 

[Fresh Start]

Several cities, many of which are far more car oriented than Toronto, have had fantastic success with ROW light rail and bus lines. Even if you cannot widen the road and have to invest one lane for transit, that lane can move the capacity of several lanes. My issue with Transit City is with stop spacing too close, so that it will not attract enough choice riders away from driving along arterials and highways.

Also worth noting that many of these same people posting on the Toronto Sun's website are the same people who scream murder at any and all taxes. This also includes Rob Ford. These people want the most expensive transit technology available, yet god forbid they have to fund it (they want the Bear Patrol, but don't want to pay taxes for it ).

Yes, but in Toronto's case we have very narrow corridors in most cases where subtracting those lanes for road-median transit ROW is to the detriment of all. The dedicated streetcar tracks along St Clair West were forced onto the public despite countless attempts by the citizens of the area to resist. The TTC was going to do what it wanted to do and no taxpayer was going to get in the way.

Now, with the dedicated streetcar near completion (only the westernmost portion of the project remains unfinished), the street is a mess. The dedicated tracks have taken over half the street. They have squeezed car traffic into 2 ultra thin lanes that, during summer months, can barely accommodate 2 cars driving side by side. In winter, with snow gathering along the edge of the lanes, there is no way for two large vehicles to pass each other. Trucks? No chance. What about bicycles? St. Clair is a cyclist's worst nightmare. It's a death trap. Not only are the auto lanes undersized, they also swerve endlessly. The white lines separating the lanes look like they were painted by someone way over the legal limit. The reason for their constant swerving is the need for a 3rd lane to be created at every stop light along St. Clair. The dedicated streetcar has eliminated the possibility of left turns at dozens of streets along the route. In order for drivers to turn left, they actually have to make a U-turn at a designated U-turn point. Once at these U-turn points, cars are squeezed into undersized U-turn lanes alongside the dedicated streetcar tracks. What about the standard traffic lanes? The TTC decided that it would simply narrow the lane markings to accommodate the turn lane. Result: Three lanes that are too narrow for cars, too narrow for buses, too narrow for trucks, and too narrow to allow bicycles through. Emergency Vehicles especially Fire Trucks? I have witnessed many a times when Fire Trucks are desperately trying to get to an emergency using St. Clair and they can't move or make it by at such a slow pace because of backed up traffic with nowhere to go. Oh and don't forget about the 120 businesses that were shut down during the construction.

No rationally sane person would want Transit City anywhere near their neighbourhood after that fiasco. Certainly not when gambling with the entire province's money. In that regard, taxpayers have absolutely every right to revolt. People don't mind public spending, so long as it benefits the public's interests in the long-run!

 

[Fresh Start]

Well I'm not surprised Rob Ford wants subways--He probably eats tons of them every year.

"As promised, I have cancelled Transit City. Enjoy your sandwiches. Oh, you guys thought I meant underground transit? No no no, those things are expensive!"

The left's hypocrisy has no end it seems. The paragons of tolerance, love and caring are usually the most vile and hateful when it comes to shutting up those who oppose their views, yet another Miller acolyte with nothing to say it seems. Wonder who is actually 'stupid' here; one who cannot comment other than to make a personal attack on Ford's girth, or Ford himself?

Don't forget we want someone to be mayor of the city, not a contestant for Mr. Universe. You can send Miller to do that if you want; he'll have lots of free time soon.

 

[kettal]

Fresh Start is right. The leftist policy of having no sense of humour is being totally disregarded here! Making jokes is only for right-wingers, so you better stop or we might start to think you are... dare I say it... right wing!!! :O

 

[nfitz]

Making fun of Ford's weight certainly doesn't seem to be fair. But surely that doesn't justify why he should be Mayor. The guy is clearly totally and completely unsuited to the job, and is grossly incompetent. If his mayoralty is half as controversial as his term as councillor he would a complete and total embarrassment to this city, and it's citizens ... and I'm only talking on a personal level here.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It isn't clear if Rob Ford thinks that selling the air rights above stations will pay for the entire cost of building a subway line (and it won't), but it's still something that needs to happen, if only for governments to recoup some money and to get some real transit-oriented development. It's absolutely ridiculous that the city isn't pushing prime sites at developers. For instance, the city should force Concord to build on Bessarion's entrance hut - they're already developing 16 hectares next door yet have very little Sheppard frontage to work with. We're going to make the same mistakes with other transit lines...surfaces will be consumed by bus bays, light wells, a sea of concrete landscaping, etc., and redevelopment will be that much more difficult because of all this 'necessary' stuff in the way.

 

[gweed123]

Selling the air rights won't pay for the entire construction of the line, but neither will road tolls, tax increases, or any number of other things that people on these threads are in favour of. Dismissing air rights because they won't cover the entire cost is stupid. Sure, it won't pay for the whole thing, but every little bit helps, AND you'd be generating ridership. I know I'd like to live in a building that has direct access to a subway. No, you wouldn't get $500 million for the air rights, but you'd get money from the initial sale, and you'd get money from the riders who would live or work in those buildings and who would buy a metropass every month.

Would I vote for Rob Ford? Absolutely not. But I am certainly pro-subway, as everyone on this forum knows. The fact that even if he is making empty promises about subways, he's still acknowledging that people want subways. Hopefully a candidate who is more serious about transit will see the amount of support he's getting by proposing subways, and step in, say they want subways as well, and actually present a plan to back it up.

If it was someone who was actually serious about transit who was proposing this, they'd have my vote. But I know he's not serious about it, and it's Rob Ford, so I won't vote for him.

 

[Fresh Start]

Just to be clear, this thread is supposed to be about discussing Rob Ford's transit plan; not conjectures about his personal life being thrown around willy-nilly by the liberal media (okay, mainly the Toronto Star) as if it were irrefutuable fact. The more and more I hear Ford's ideas; the more and more he seems like mayoral material, unlike Smitherman, etc. He makes sense. He is careful about wasting taxpayer dollars. Yes, he's a bit eccentric, but so are many of the other candidates in their own ways. Who you vote or don't vote for is completely irrelevant to this conversation. Just remember whoever enters office, we're stuck with for four years, so think long and hard before casting your ballots and don't just give in to peer pressure. The issues are all that matters; so think long and hard how politicians' closed doors, backroom deals affect your daily life and livelihood.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Fresh Start becoming a Rob Ford supporter is the biggest shocker thus far in this election season.

Also I hope there's no record of you making personal insults toward David Miller or Adam Giambrone in your post history or you might come off like a giant hypocrite and that might damage your credibility.

(That's a joke.)

 

[urbandreamer]

I actually made up that joke on the spot re: his size. I was thinking about that John Barber vs. Rob Ford video someone posted a link to somewhere.

As for Rob Ford as mayor? Honestly, commuting through Etobicoke the past few weeks was an eye opener, and the people I met, many of them "Torontonians"--if north Etobicoke can be considered part of Toronto--were frightfully pro-car, anti transit types. The last time I experienced that sentiment was while living in the Forest Hill area. So it made me realize to most Torontonians, streetcars make them think of congested King and Queen West, while subways are out of sight and supposedly faster. Mass transit is okay if it keeps those poor TTC riders hidden from view....

Thus, I've come to conclude that Rob Ford indeed has a great shot of winning the mayor's seat, as most Torontonians are indeed pro-car, suburbanites.

Have you eaten a Ford...lately?

(And btw, I may actually vote for Rob Ford.)

 

[Automation Gallery]

The guy is clearly totally and completely unsuited to the job, and is grossly incompetent. If his mayoralty is half as controversial as his term as councillor he would a complete and total embarrassment to this city, and it's citizens ...

Well there is always these 3 clowns...

 

[urbandreamer]

^It's easy to say people are "clowns" when you've never met them. I've had dinner with Rocco Rossi and his wife, so while I think his policies are stupid, he's a decent chap. Certainly not clownish (that title belongs to me ), although he's got a great sense of humour!

In a way, it would be morale boosting for his private life if he won the election, as his wife isn't the most self-assured woman on the planet....