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Rob Ford wants subways, not streetcars

Smitherman's advantage is that he is grounded in reality, Ford's proposal is a fantasy.
 
I liked the Transit City plans, myself. If we could just build something OTHER than putting something, yet again, on Sheppard East...
 
leopetr said:
I think that, of all the candidates, Smitherman is the likeliest to actually get actual money for transit construction. Good intentions are nice, but the ability to follow through on them is important too. Even if Hudak or Horwath become premier, the fact that Smitherman has cabinet experience at the provincial level will mean that he will have the provincial and, in the longer term, federal connections necessary to get senior levels of government to invest in Toronto.
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You have a good point here - Transit is politics these days, and Miller certainly didn't win many friends at either level of government.

People point to Vancouver building a transit line for less money in less time as some sort of triumph of efficiency, but the reality is that a combination of The Olympics and Federal Government involvement pushed their projects along at a pace that just isn't possible in a city that's regarded as a bastard stepchild.
 
nfitz said:
Your going to vote for someone who is best known for his drunken antics, racist comments, and being charged for wife-beating, simply because you like his subway policy?
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Why not? At least with Rob Ford the public knows what its getting.

Or lest we forget the other forerunner had a substance abuse problem and alledgedly took to the services of escorts. I don't know if you have been following George's career, but it is nothing to write home about. First there was the little case of c. difficile. A deadly outbreak that he could have ameliorated simply by making it a reportable infection. After all, only the CMA recommended that and Quebec had already been hit by the infection. George ignored the advice with the result that over 500 people died in Ontario's hospitals. That is more than all the SARS, Walkerton and Listeria fatalities combined. But it wasn't George's fault, it was those pesky hospitals. McGuinty bailed him out with a promotion to Environment and Energy where he couldn't hurt anyone. Or could he? Oh, yes, it was also George who appointed all those people to eHealth. Again, McGuinty has bailed him out. No inquiry into c. difficile and no inquiry into e-Health. So that whole SSHA and eHealth scandal, Green Energy Act scandal, OLGC scandal, need I say more? I don't see you clamoring to warn the electorate about that candidate's dirty laundry. Btw, what is he proposing in regards to public transit expansion that's any better?

nfitz said:
Surely one should consider the bigger picture!
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The bigger picture is that the Transit City plan is not sustainable nor affordable, the two giant fibs Miller/Giambrone tried to sell the public on. They've had the past 7 years to demonstrate to the public light-rail's worth, and they failed. We never elect good administrators - which is all that municipal politics calls for. Municipal level of government was not created to advance social agendas - it is here to administer infrastructure and essential services on a local level. Instead we get Mayors who fashion themselves to be eco-warriors and bicycle advocates, all the while ignoring the fundamental services and infrastructure that they are here to manage. Underground/grade separated transport is a fundamental requirement for a city of this size, and the framework for that technology mode already exists in the outlying areas. Suburbia doesn't have light-rail, except Long Branch where I've had the misfortune of being left stranded for a half-hour on many occasion awaiting the 501 car meanwhile several MT, 110 and 123 buses; even a GO train showed up.

nfitz said:
Not that his subway policy makes any sense ... how would a PPP get the income to pay for construction, and generate their large profits? Can you explain that? Surely it would be a repeat of the Union Pearson disaster.
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If the RAV line in Vancouver can be built using PPP, and Veolia Transportation can operate a state-of-the-art BRT system that makes YRT by comparison look like a 1970s network, then why can't the same occur here? Why are Torontonians too apathetic to demand better from their governments and choose instead to chastise any public figure that has the wheretherall to do the asking for us?
 
kettal said:
Smitherman's advantage is that he is grounded in reality, Ford's proposal is a fantasy.
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Yeah, your right... the do-nothing or keep-as-is reality!
 
Fresh Start said:
Or lest we forget the other forerunner had a substance abuse problem and alledgedly took to the services of escorts.
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What's your point? Smitherman is only somewhat better than Ford. The guy proved his ignorance on Toronto issues back during the streetcar funding debate, saying that he was unaware that Toronto was going to have to buy new streetcars; even though the tender had been ongoing for a couple of years, had receved significant media coverage, and many documents had been sent to his ministry. Though on the positive side, Smitherman's substance abuse issues seem to be in the past.

Still ... the guy has no platform. I'm not voting for someone without a platform.

And how you can possible compare the Canada Line (RAV line ... where are you posting from, the last decade somewhere?) to Ford's funding of the subway I don't know ... the Canada Line was paid for directly by Translink and senior levels of government. There was no significant funding by developers.
 
SimonP said:
Promising subways is easy, paying for them is hard. Air rights would put only a small dent, road tolls would be a good start but would still be far from enough to cover a new line. (well a subway)[/URL]
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And paying for light-rail is any easier? Does $1.4 Billion for the Sheppard East LRT sound remotely cheap? Remember the new 512 St Clair LRT lines is 6 kms long and carries 35,000ppd running through densely-populated neighbourhoods. The 6 kilometre long Sheppard Subway line carries in excess of 55,000ppd through low-density Willowdale. People are far more attracted to underground subways because of their larger carrying capacity (1200 people per trip on a 6-car trainst) and their obvious time/speed advantages. One train only needs a driver and a platform observer. So subway may have high initial costs and they more then pay for themselves in the long-run. Regardless ask yourself, is travelling across the suburbs as major a gridlock issue as trying to head into the downtown core and getting around it? If your answer is no, they why is Transit City trying to rectify an issue that has yet to reach critical mass. Bloor-Yonge is at critical mass and that's what needs to be fixed first and foremost. The only way to do that is to build the Downtown Relief subway.
 
For someone who is such a notorious penny pincher and a reputation for being good with money (at least from some), you would think that:

A) He would know that number that you would get from air rights is several orders of magnitude less than what you would actually need to build it.
B) Suburban subway service is a huge money pit that costs tens of millions more to operate than the bus service that it replaces.

.. and to think I thought he was starting to sound reasonable with his recent comments on bike paths lol. It does play well with the demagogues though. Just look at this thread.
 
I think Mr. Ford knows exactly what he is talking about. It's true many torontonians want subways, since they are pretty clueless about the benefits of LRT, and are ignorant of why subways in suburbs will most likely not benefit them. It's easy for Mr. Ford to preach about getting subways built as a candidate, and I'll bet it will be even easier to totally forget about transit if he get elected. It's all about getting the votes.
If Mr. Ford was the true fiscal conservative he claims to be, he would be backing Transit City, and looking at the cost of running the Sheppard subway. Hell, I'll bet Mr. Ford would find a way to shut the Sheppard line down just to save costs.
 
Paleo said:
For someone who is such a notorious penny pincher and a reputation for being good with money (at least from some), you would think that:

A) He would know that number that you would get from air rights is several orders of magnitude less than what you would actually need to build it.
B) Suburban subway service is a huge money pit that costs tens of millions more to operate than the bus service that it replaces.

.. and to think I thought he was starting to sound reasonable with his recent comments on bike paths lol. It does play well with the demagogues though. Just look at this thread.
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Isn't Sheppard a success????
NYCC is a major centre for businesses and highrise condos

The problem in this city is that people view anything outside old Toronto as suburbs...
Everything is Toronto now even if its call scarborough or North York or Etobicoke...

So what??? Kipling to Keele is a huge Money pit?
Eglinton to Finch is a money pit?????

That's not how you build a succesful city...

The fact that Toronto has more than 1 "downtown" is a HUGE adventage and we should capitalize on that by linking them with HRT not streetcars
 
Justin10000 said:
I think Mr. Ford knows exactly what he is talking about. It's true many torontonians want subways, since they are pretty clueless about the benefits of LRT, and are ignorant of why subways in suburbs will most likely not benefit them.
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WOW!!!!
Spoken like a true "Toronto is the centre of the universe" guy!!!

So if Major cities around the world (I mean the same cities that Torontonians and its politician likes to include themselves in) build subways over streetcars is because they are ignorant and clueless about LRT...WOW

If Montreal choose subway to extend the blue line East On Jean-Talon Street instead of building Streetcars is because their ignorant and clueless about streetcars????WOWOOW!!!!!!

LRT???please...besides Eglinton, its a streetcar PERIOD....
Even LaPResse from Montreal are calling the lines streetcars when months ago they were calling the Metro lines...

Every medias are waking up to that fact and yet you call pro-subway ignorants and clueless...
WOW WOW
 
At this moment, I intend to vote for Smitherman as the best of a bad bunch. However, I'm going to limit myself to Mr. Ford's comments.

Ford would 'cut' TC without full provincial funding. Does this mean 100% funding for TC from Ontario or 100% of "Ontario's share" of total funding? Either way, TC is going to have reduced funding from Ontario over the next 5-10 years, so we can assume Rob Ford is anti-streetcar as well as pro-car.

Instead, Mr. Ford's idea is a PPP for subways. I assume this will be like Hwy 407 This goes one of three ways: it works, it fails, or it doesn't happen. If it works, it means the government has failed the public in not providing this service at cost, rather than on a for-profit basis. If it fails, it means the subway was overdesign and was a bad idea in the first place.

PPP do have a place in politics, but mixing profit-motived business and political-motived subsidies you end up with a politically motivated net loss.
 
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