Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[BurlOak]

If it is what I think it is...
Currently Highway 11 exits on the left but continues on the right and 400 "exits" on the right but continues on the left. So what I hope they're doing is switching it around, by "untangling it", so that Highway 11 will exit on the right.
I don't know this for sure, I'm just speculating.
It makes more sense that way.

No, sorry.

The new bridge is being built to the south (maybe southeast) of the original bridge - but it will continue to carry Hwy. 400 NB traffic. It will remain a left hand exit to highway 11.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Also, reading into the highway 7 twinning, work is apparently underway and it will open in 2015, not start in 2015. The document makes it sound like they are RIROing the current highway though, so I'm not sure.

edit: nevermind, I was reading about the highway 7 widening through kitchener and thought it was the 7 twinning. completion is set for "beyond 2016" for the twinning portion.

 

[Dan416]

I can see that being very problematic given that "407" would imply it would be tolled, and the province has been very clear that tolls will only be applied to new highways, not existing ones.

Speaking of which, has anyone heard of a timeframe for a number being chosen for the 407 Durham West Connector?

Is it really that difficult to people to understand that parts of the 407 are tolled and other parts are not? We already will have a part of the 407 tolled as it is now, and the new part of the 407 that will be tolled but by the province. Re-sign another part of it that won't be tolled.

Which makes me wonder if the new part of the 407 they're building now, will it use the 407 ETR signage or the traditional King's Highway-type signage?

 

[liamdevlin02]

Is it really that difficult to people to understand that parts of the 407 are tolled and other parts are not? We already will have a part of the 407 tolled as it is now, and the new part of the 407 that will be tolled but by the province. Re-sign another part of it that won't be tolled.

Which makes me wonder if the new part of the 407 they're building now, will it use the 407 ETR signage or the traditional King's Highway-type signage?

Why would they rename it to 407 from 35/115? When it gets to the connection point with 35/115, it's a junction like any other highway junction.

 

[Dan416]

Because 407 roughly follows 7 and should eventually go to Ottawa, no?

 

[innsertnamehere]

The 407 extension will connect aroun halfway along the 35 RIRO. What would you name the portio south of the connection? If you were to ever use 400 series designation on the highway I would use 415 to match 115. It would make sense if it ever reached Ottawa as well because it would match the 416 and 417 numbers already in the area.

 

[gweed123]

The 407 extension will connect aroun halfway along the 35 RIRO. What would you name the portio south of the connection? If you were to ever use 400 series designation on the highway I would use 415 to match 115. It would make sense if it ever reached Ottawa as well because it would match the 416 and 417 numbers already in the area.

Highway 15 runs between Carleton Place and just east of Kingston. There's a remote chance at some point some of that corridor may be upgraded, so I think the 415 name should be reserved for that.

What I would like to see is it referred to as 435 instead.

 

[DavidH]

Is it really that difficult to people to understand that parts of the 407 are tolled and other parts are not? We already will have a part of the 407 tolled as it is now, and the new part of the 407 that will be tolled but by the province. Re-sign another part of it that won't be tolled.

Which makes me wonder if the new part of the 407 they're building now, will it use the 407 ETR signage or the traditional King's Highway-type signage?

"407 ETR" is a very specifically a toll route; the "T" is "toll", after all. I presume that 35/115 could be renamed "407" and use a standard shield with no "ETR" graphic, but that's still potentially confusing. Yes, only some people will be confused but why not avoid the confusion altogether?

Yes, people can be trained that some parts of the 407 are tolled and some are not, and that the signage is what distinguishes those sections, but why bother? Is there any shortage of highway numbers that compels us to renumber 35/115 to use the 407 number? If the argument is that highway numbers shouldn't change over a straight-line connection, the examples of 403/410, 403/407, Gardiner,QEW, and DVP/404 all argue otherwise.

 

[innsertnamehere]

It won't even be a straight line.

 

[ShonTron]

The MTO doesn't generally renumber existing highways (the odd exceptions were 85 to 86 and back to 85 in Kitchener-Waterloo and Highway 666 to 658).

The MTO does not give out 400-series numbers to short freeway sections of much longer routes (ie EC Row Expressway, once part of Highways 2 and 18, Conestoga Parkway and Kitchener-Waterloo Expressway, parts of 7, 8 and 85 respectively.) The freeway section of Highway 7 between Kanata and Carleton Place is a good example. But Highways 400 and 417, which were built as independent routes, replaced Highways 69 and 17 as they are extended on their alignments. I expect Highway 7 new between Guelph and Kitchener to be called Highway 7, and not given a 400-series highway number.

But if Highway 35/115 was converted from RIRO to full freeway, I could see it renumbered as 415 as it is an independant route and being a full freeway throughout. The precedent being Highway 416 - which was partially built as an upgrade of Highway 16, but also with a new alignment in Ottawa and at Johnstown.

I can't see Highway 15 ever needing to be upgraded to full freeway. There are a few things that I think might be useful, perhaps a new alignment towards Highway 401 with a new interchange (or a reroute via an upgraded Joyceville Road). Maybe extend the Highway 7 freeway south of Mississippi Lake as far as Perth (but only to Perth) with a new Highway 15 exit and alignment to meet it. That would be it. So I'd forget worrying about ever reserving 415 for 15.

 

[Transportfan]

But if the E-W new alignment from the 400 to Gravenhurst is chosen, I would suspect that they would need to retain some of the existing Highway 11's capacity in order to continue to serve Orillia and area. I would suspect that they would turn it into a 2 lane highway plus a permanent centre turning lane.

The main traffic would continue to the 400, but there would still be some that would go to/through Orillia.

I'd think the new 11 (not 400) would tie into the Orillia freeway section and split off again north of it.

 

[gweed123]

The MTO doesn't generally renumber existing highways (the odd exceptions were 85 to 86 and back to 85 in Kitchener-Waterloo and Highway 666 to 658).

The MTO does not give out 400-series numbers to short freeway sections of much longer routes (ie EC Row Expressway, once part of Highways 2 and 18, Conestoga Parkway and Kitchener-Waterloo Expressway, parts of 7, 8 and 85 respectively.) The freeway section of Highway 7 between Kanata and Carleton Place is a good example. But Highways 400 and 417, which were built as independent routes, replaced Highways 69 and 17 as they are extended on their alignments. I expect Highway 7 new between Guelph and Kitchener to be called Highway 7, and not given a 400-series highway number.

But if Highway 35/115 was converted from RIRO to full freeway, I could see it renumbered as 415 as it is an independant route and being a full freeway throughout. The precedent being Highway 416 - which was partially built as an upgrade of Highway 16, but also with a new alignment in Ottawa and at Johnstown.

I can't see Highway 15 ever needing to be upgraded to full freeway. There are a few things that I think might be useful, perhaps a new alignment towards Highway 401 with a new interchange (or a reroute via an upgraded Joyceville Road). Maybe extend the Highway 7 freeway south of Mississippi Lake as far as Perth (but only to Perth) with a new Highway 15 exit and alignment to meet it. That would be it. So I'd forget worrying about ever reserving 415 for 15.

It may not happen for a long time, but there's plenty of numbers to choose from, haha. No need to take the number of an existing major King's Highway. Also, just based on the numbering, the "teens" numbers look to be reserved mainly for Eastern Ontario (416, 417, 15, etc).

Personally, I don't think having "407 ETR" and 407 as two separate yet connected routes is a big deal. From the connection with the current 35/115 to Peterborough, I would simply renumber that as 407. South of the connection, number it as Highway 35 (435 if it ever gets upgraded to 400 series standards). This of course would mean a small stretch of the RIRO section between the 35/115 split and the 407 connection will need to be upgraded to 400 series standards in order to form a continuous freeway.

This numbering scheme would not be all that different than the 407's relation with the West and East Durham Links. In fact, most people would probably view the 35 as the easternmost Durham Link when all is said and done.

I'd think the new 11 (not 400) would tie into the Orillia freeway section and split off again north of it.

Yes, that's what I meant. I just re-read my post, and I can understand the confusion. Sorry!

 

[innsertnamehere]

Just drove 11 from highway 169 to Huntsville today, and traffic was much much lower than when I usually drive the road. (Friday night during the summer) there is no way 11 could be a 400 series highway north of gravenhurst. There are still a ton of at grade crossings, and many of them aren't lightly used. During the drive I had to switch lanes multiple times to avoid accelerating or decelerating vehicles entering these crossings. Large portions of the RIRO are getting repaved as well.

 

[Haljackey]

I'd love to see a Hwy 411, but as you said it would either need a freeway bypass or be an exception like the 406.

A Hwy 435 would be cool too

As a pipe dream I'd love to see a Hwy 7 freeway from London to the GTA that would help take stress off the 401 provide an alternate route. This would be the real Hwy 407 (not 407ETR or 407E).

 

[waterloowarrior]

I would like to see many of the 2 lanes highways like 7 west of Perth and perhaps 15 upgraded to Swedish-style 2+1 roads with medians and frequent passing lanes. The biggest problem with 2 lane roads is head on collisions and these types of design can really limit that danger. Intersections can also be upgraded to reduce potential conflict points. I can see significant cost savings over the traditional Ontario method of 100m wide Highway 7 to Carleton Place style roads - Existing alignments can generally be used and upgrading roads could be timed along with regular refurbishment/reconstruction.

[video=youtube;JA0OKTrjs9A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JA0OKTrjs9A[/video]

http://goo.gl/maps/qyq3V

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=502483&page=9
http://goo.gl/maps/Ljswu
http://goo.gl/maps/r1apm

grade separation can be developed where appropriate
http://goo.gl/maps/KymRF
http://goo.gl/maps/0G1wY

or merge lanes from left turns
http://goo.gl/maps/4D4mv

or for at-grade intersection ban direct left turns and require turning right to turn left
http://goo.gl/maps/2LeRc