Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[lenaitch]

^ I was thinking only of Toronto (forgot about the Allen). There are a lot of cash-strapped municipalities that are struggling to maintain their now-local roads that were downloaded by the province under Harris, but I suppose it would be more about votes than traffic management.

 

[Leo_Chan]

Is uploading municipal highways an efficiency for the Province?

 

[Neutrino]

^Is the Pope Catholic

 

[BurlOak]

Is uploading municipal highways an efficiency for the Province?

• Tim Hudak campaigned to upload the Gardiner and the DVP back in 2014. That was when the City was contemplating tearing down the East Gardiner.
• After that, the City voted to rebuilt the Gardiner.
• Then they voted, to show their virtue signalling support for the left wing Liberals, to not favour any type of upload. Essentially, the City said they would gladly spend $500M or $1B or whatever the amount is just to kick sand at the PC Party.
• Ford did not campaign to upload.
• Why would Ford upload it. The Gardiner is being rebuilt. The City is happy using their own money for it. Why should Ford use his money.?

 

[ShonTron]

There are actually quite a few municipal freeways in the province:

Gardiner
DVP
Allen Road
Red Hill Valley Parkway (Hamilton)
Lincoln Alexander Parkway (Hamilton)
E.C. ROW Expressway (Windsor)
Highway 174 (ottawa)
Highway 420 in Niagara Falls is also partially a municipal road even though it is a sort of half-freeway, was once a provincial highway, and serves as the direct connection to a major international bridge.

Freeways that aren't elevated aren't exactly unbelievably expensive to maintain. For example I believe the DVP has a maintenance budget of $300 million for the next 30 years - that's only $10 million/year for a major artery, and one that is at end of life too and runs through a complicated urban environment. More "standard" highways like the Linc will probably have essentially negligible maintenance costs over the long term.

I could see Ford uploading the DVP and Gardiner so that he can institute a widening program - perhaps with leaving the elevated portion of the Gardiner in municipal control.

Also, Highbury Avenue in London, which is a semi-freeway (two interchanges) that was the only part of an unbuilt system there. Highbury Avenue was once Highway 126.

 

[muller877]

There are actually quite a few municipal freeways in the province:

Gardiner
DVP
Allen Road
Red Hill Valley Parkway (Hamilton)
Lincoln Alexander Parkway (Hamilton)
E.C. ROW Expressway (Windsor)
Highway 174 (ottawa)
Highway 420 in Niagara Falls is also partially a municipal road even though it is a sort of half-freeway, was once a provincial highway, and serves as the direct connection to a major international bridge.

Also, Highbury Avenue in London, which is a semi-freeway (two interchanges) that was the only part of an unbuilt system there. Highbury Avenue was once Highway 126.

KW is very fortunate most of their freeways are provincially owned.
- Hwy 7 from Baden to Victoria St.
- Hwy 8 from the 401 to Hwy 7 (plus running concurrently with Hwy 7 to Baden).
- Hwy 85 from Victoria St to the Conestogo River
(from there to the St Jacobs roundabout i guess it technically is a 2 lane restricted access road owned by the municipality)

They were never downloaded as each road plays an important part in getting to the towns north & west of KW.

 

[ShonTron]

I was recently in Northwestern Ontario. Highway 17 through White River is really quiet. It's easy to cross on foot, and I don't think twinning between Sault Ste. Marie and Nipigon will every be necessary. It's really pretty, though.

Here are two photos of the completed Nipigon River Bridge. About a third of Highway 17 is now twinned between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, with only one interchange (on the north end of Thunder Bay). Though the twinned section of Highway 11 south of North Bay also has many at-grade intersections and a 100 km/h speed limit, the twinned sections of Highway 17 are 90 km/h, the same as two-lane sections.

 

[Streety McCarface]

KW is very fortunate most of their freeways are provincially owned.
- Hwy 7 from Baden to Victoria St.
- Hwy 8 from the 401 to Hwy 7 (plus running concurrently with Hwy 7 to Baden).
- Hwy 85 from Victoria St to the Conestogo River
(from there to the St Jacobs roundabout i guess it technically is a 2 lane restricted access road owned by the municipality)

They were never downloaded as each road plays an important part in getting to the towns north & west of KW.

But it doesn't really allow for much-needed extensions to Elmira and Guelph, which either aren't considered or have been put off for years. They also haven't fixed the stupid interchange between the 401 and King St Bypass, which is a huge pain for anyone travelling to London, Windsor, Detroit, Port Huron/Sarnia, etc. They still haven't made highway 6 between Guelph and Burlington a full controlled-access highway, which really doesn't make sense as a whole.

 

[BurlOak]

They still haven't made highway 6 between Guelph and Burlington a full controlled-access highway, which really doesn't make sense as a whole.

This will happen the same time they make highway 11 between Barrie and Gravenhurst a full controlled-access highway - never.

 

[innsertnamehere]

This will happen the same time they make highway 11 between Barrie and Gravenhurst a full controlled-access highway - never.

MTO has at least completed the EA for Barrie-Gravenhurst... 6 has no long range plans. MTO has plans for the Morriston Bypass and the new interchange at Highway 5, and that's about it.

I could see it getting upgraded to a RIRO at some point, but a full freeway is unlikely.

 

[ericmacm]

There are actually quite a few municipal freeways in the province:

Gardiner
DVP
Allen Road
Red Hill Valley Parkway (Hamilton)
Lincoln Alexander Parkway (Hamilton)
E.C. ROW Expressway (Windsor)
Highway 174 (ottawa)
Highway 420 in Niagara Falls is also partially a municipal road even though it is a sort of half-freeway, was once a provincial highway, and serves as the direct connection to a major international bridge.

Freeways that aren't elevated aren't exactly unbelievably expensive to maintain. For example I believe the DVP has a maintenance budget of $300 million for the next 30 years - that's only $10 million/year for a major artery, and one that is at end of life too and runs through a complicated urban environment. More "standard" highways like the Linc will probably have essentially negligible maintenance costs over the long term.

I could see Ford uploading the DVP and Gardiner so that he can institute a widening program - perhaps with leaving the elevated portion of the Gardiner in municipal control.

I'd love to see E.C. Row get uploaded. It is easily the worst municipal freeway I've ever seen in Ontario, with incredibly poor signage and road quality for most of the route, save for the small eastern section of the highway that was upgraded to meet with the 401.

 

[lenaitch]

I was recently in Northwestern Ontario. Highway 17 through White River is really quiet. It's easy to cross on foot, and I don't think twinning between Sault Ste. Marie and Nipigon will every be necessary. It's really pretty, though.

Here are two photos of the completed Nipigon River Bridge. About a third of Highway 17 is now twinned between Thunder Bay and Nipigon, with only one interchange (on the north end of Thunder Bay). Though the twinned section of Highway 11 south of North Bay also has many at-grade intersections and a 100 km/h speed limit, the twinned sections of Highway 17 are 90 km/h, the same as two-lane sections. View attachment 198857View attachment 198858

Nice to see the second span completed. At least it didn't go 'sproing' like the first one.

Neither of the northern highway routes have ever justified twinning based on traffic volumes (under 2k AADT). Most locations could safely stage a dance along the centre line.

Soo - Wawa and Marathon - TBay; prettiest stretches of road in the province. Used to live and work up there.

 

[Haljackey]

I'd love to see E.C. Row get uploaded. It is easily the worst municipal freeway I've ever seen in Ontario, with incredibly poor signage and road quality for most of the route, save for the small eastern section of the highway that was upgraded to meet with the 401.

Hey, at least Windsor and K/W have freeways. As a Londoner, very jealous of the major cities around us that got them while London got screwed (although this was mostly London's fault). Same goes for Kitchener's LRT... we shot ourselves in the foot for a similar project.

London pays for the infrastructure of other cities because we don't want it ourselves

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And yes, I lothe getting to/from Kitchener from London. No direct ramps from Highway 401 to 8 makes me travel through big-box-barf congestion on King St.

 

[Streety McCarface]

Hey, at least Windsor and K/W have freeways. As a Londoner, very jealous of the major cities around us that got them while London got screwed (although this was mostly London's fault). Same goes for Kitchener's LRT... we shot ourselves in the foot for a similar project.

London pays for the infrastructure of other cities because we don't want it ourselves

-----

And yes, I lothe getting to/from Kitchener from London. No direct ramps from Highway 401 to 8 makes me travel through big-box-barf congestion on King St.

At least there's a Costco.

 

[muller877]

Hey, at least Windsor and K/W have freeways. As a Londoner, very jealous of the major cities around us that got them while London got screwed (although this was mostly London's fault). Same goes for Kitchener's LRT... we shot ourselves in the foot for a similar project.

London pays for the infrastructure of other cities because we don't want it ourselves

-----

And yes, I lothe getting to/from Kitchener from London. No direct ramps from Highway 401 to 8 makes me travel through big-box-barf congestion on King St.

When the 401 was built there was a political decision to bring it south of Woodstock and London. Don't know why...if there was a hope that Hwy 7/8 would eventually also be a freeway or St Thomas had political might. Does anyone know on this forum?

To go to Waterloo the back roads are often quicker than the 401. Kitchener...good luck! "Big-box-barf" leaving London and coming into Kitchener.