Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

[BurlOak]

As a commuter on the 403-410, this is a solid idea BurlOak. Improvements are also needed on the northbound 403-410 transfer as well.

The current 403-401 EB express ramp should really be reconfigured alongside the current 403-401 EB collector ramp, which would allow for the NB 410 to have a simpler routing from the 403. With the current configuration, EB 403 traffic headed for the 410 has to merge to the right which tends to cause a backup with traffic getting off at Eastgate. The 2 lane transfer doesn't help matters either. HOV lane users sometimes have a hell of a time getting over to the right to get to the 410 as well.

With a simpler, more direct 403-410 transfer, the current 403 HOV lanes would also be continuous with the upcoming 410 HOV lanes.

Having a quick look at this and I have the following solution.

The Collectors become the exit for 401 EB collector, and for 401 WB (the new loop ramp) and continue as the 410 NB collectors (this is definitely still needed so those getting on at Eglinton and Cawthra can access 410 NB as well as 401).
The Express is used as the 410 NB express and also the exit for the 401 EB express.

The Express is a more prominent, so it would have to have 4 lanes from the transfer at Eglinton northwards. Three lanes would continue as the 410 NB express, using essentially the lanes that are now there. To the left would exit 2 lanes for the 401 EB express.

The Collector would have 2 lanes exit right for 401 EB Collector, and then have more 3 lanes continue as the 410 NB collector. These collector lanes would have one lane exit right to 401 WB (new loop).

Getting 3 lanes under the 403 EB express to 401 EB express, and the two 401 WB to 403 SB ramps, is not a problem (where there are currently 2 lanes). It looks like there is about 20m, which could easily hold a 3m left shoulder, 3 x 3.75m lanes, and a 3m right shoulder (still 3m to spare). The east spans of those bridges will have the new 410 NB collector lanes. Those spans are about 18m, enough for full lanes and shoulders.

The only thing is that the 403 HOV lane could not be saved. I thought about exiting left and going under the 401 WB express to 403 WB express, but there is no way to make this sharp turn (blue line). The only way to save the HOV lane would be to exit left from the 403 Express and go over the two 401 WB to 403 WB ramps (other blue line) and under the 401 itself. This would probably be a $30M endeavour.

 

[salsa]

Eventually as MCC grows and develops, the best thing to do would together rid of the 403 altogether, for obvious reasons.

And what are those obvious reasons?

 

[arcum]

5 lanes from 403 to 410 NB is a little overkill isn't it? Considering existing is only 2.

The new configuration based on the current 410 median widening project will have 2 + 1 HOV from 403 to 410 NB in a short express segment, while 2 from 401WB and 1 from 401EB form a short collectors segment. These merge after the exit to Courtney Park.

Also, the 403-401WB loop ramp will split off from the ramp to 401 EB collectors.

 

[Haljackey]

Highway 401 scheduled to be English Wikipedia's featured article on Nov 10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ontario_Highway_401

 

[nfitz]

Highway 401 scheduled to be English Wikipedia's featured article on Nov 10.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ontario_Highway_401

I'm surprised given how poor parts of that article are. There are things in there that just aren't true, like a highly speculative claim that the MTO intends to widen the entire length to 6 lanes. East of Cornwall? As if ...

Anyone got a better source for that - it's based on an old 2007 National Post article quoting something Donna Cansfield said.

 

[Mulder]

I'm surprised given how poor parts of that article are. There are things in there that just aren't true, like a highly speculative claim that the MTO intends to widen the entire length to 6 lanes. East of Cornwall? As if ...

Anyone got a better source for that - it's based on an old 2007 National Post article quoting something Donna Cansfield said.

You want a better source than what the Transportation minister said at the time? Yikes.

Yes MTO has plans to widen the Highway to 6 lanes all the way. However, there is a shit ton of prelim work. Countless bridges, culverts, property.. etc.

There is currently alot of major Highway projects underway, 417 widening/extending in Ottawa on three different sections, 401 widening in Kingston, birdge work near Brighton.
I also know they have taken soil samples in and around bridges in Belleville. It's not something that can be hammered out all at once. But don't be surprised if by 2031 (at which time, LOS falls to F on many sections of the highway) 401 is already widened most of the way to the 416.

Once the current batch of projects is finished, I'd expect something to be announced in regards to 401 to Belleville.
They did some testing on the Highway 62 bridge 2 years ago to decide rehab or replacement options. I know they rehab'd 37 bridge & 2 bridges on the 401 east of that too. That extends the life by at least 15 years.

 

[nfitz]

You want a better source than what the Transportation minister said at the time? Yikes.

A better source at what the National Post quoted the minister as saying. There was nothing in the various press releases from the Minister or the Ministry. And the AADT number east of 416 are no where near that for 3-laning.

Yes MTO has plans to widen the Highway to 6 lanes all the way. However, there is a shit ton of prelim work. Countless bridges, culverts, property.. etc.

More importantly, is there any timeframe to do so. I'm sure the MTO has plans somewhere to widen it. Somewhere the USA has plans to invade Canada; but that doesn't mean the USA is planning to invade Canada!

There are no current active plans to widen the 401 east of Prescott. The article gives the impression otherwise, and this should be fixed. So what recent referenceable speaks to this (one way or another)

But don't be surprised if by 2031 (at which time, LOS falls to F on many sections of the highway) 401 is already widened most of the way to the 416.

I've been driving the 401 since the 1970s (used to live in Kingston, later in Montreal). Over that 40+ years, I've watched the 401 be slowly widened from Toronto, 90 km now, to Cobourg. At that rate, they'd close the gap at Kingston (another 225 km) by 2114, and the remaining 220 km past Kingston to tbe border by the early 2200s. Now I wouldn't be surprised if they've widened to Kingston by 2030 or so ... but I'd be surprised if they've gone much further. But even if they did get to 416 ... Past 416? Where are these plans documented, other than a possible misquote from a rather flakey, and short-lived Minister?

 

[Mulder]

A better source at what the National Post quoted the minister as saying. There was nothing in the various press releases from the Minister or the Ministry. And the AADT number east of 416 are no where near that for 3-laning.

More importantly, is there any timeframe to do so. I'm sure the MTO has plans somewhere to widen it. Somewhere the USA has plans to invade Canada; but that doesn't mean the USA is planning to invade Canada!

There are no current active plans to widen the 401 east of Prescott. The article gives the impression otherwise, and this should be fixed. So what recent referenceable speaks to this (one way or another)

I've been driving the 401 since the 1970s (used to live in Kingston, later in Montreal). Over that 40+ years, I've watched the 401 be slowly widened from Toronto, 90 km now, to Cobourg. At that rate, they'd close the gap at Kingston (another 225 km) by 2114, and the remaining 220 km past Kingston to tbe border by the early 2200s. Now I wouldn't be surprised if they've widened to Kingston by 2030 or so ... but I'd be surprised if they've gone much further. But even if they did get to 416 ... Past 416? Where are these plans documented, other than a possible misquote from a rather flakey, and short-lived Minister?

You can believe what you want I guess. I've worked on Bridge design projects beyond the 416 towards Montreal, and will be working on culverts between Gan & Brockville that MTO has specifically stated want to be designed to accommodate future widening.

 

[nfitz]

You can believe what you want I guess. I've worked on Bridge design projects beyond the 416 towards Montreal, and will be working on culverts between Gan & Brockville that MTO has specifically stated want to be designed to accommodate future widening.

I certainly believe you. They'd be foolish to not to account for future widening. That's been the policy since the 1970s hasn't it?

The question though, is there any (other) references that indicate there is a plan in place (or not) to do actually widen the 401 all the way to the Quebec border in any particular time frame?

 

[gweed123]

Here's what I'd like to see in terms of 401 widening phasing, but keeping in mind this is for the eastern section only, since that's the only part that I really drive:

1) Finish the widening through Kingston to Highway 15.
2) Widen from Trenton to Belleville (a pretty big local connection between the two cities).
3) Close the gap between Cobourg and Trenton.
4) Close the gap between Belleville and Kingston.
5) Widen from Highway 15 to Highway 137 (connection to I-81).
6) Widen from 137 to Brockville.
7) Widen from Brockville to Highway 416.

 

[Haljackey]

I'm surprised given how poor parts of that article are. There are things in there that just aren't true

If you think you can make it better then do it! Anyone can edit Wikipedia.

 

[nfitz]

If you think you can make it better then do it! Anyone can edit Wikipedia.

I've tried, but there's a WikiNazi who has a hissy fit whenever you do something to that particular article that they don't approve of.

 

[Mulder]

Here's what I'd like to see in terms of 401 widening phasing, but keeping in mind this is for the eastern section only, since that's the only part that I really drive:

1) Finish the widening through Kingston to Highway 15.
2) Widen from Trenton to Belleville (a pretty big local connection between the two cities).
3) Close the gap between Cobourg and Trenton.
4) Close the gap between Belleville and Kingston.
5) Widen from Highway 15 to Highway 137 (connection to I-81).
6) Widen from 137 to Brockville.
7) Widen from Brockville to Highway 416.

I would agree with this staging, as nfitz pointed out it's much more of a timeline issue, when the Minister of Transportation said in 2007 they wanted to expand the 401 to 6 lanes all the way by 2012? They were clearly dreaming.

The widening that's going on in Kingston right now is a 5 year project @ $40m. Can you imagine the cost to do the whole thing in one shot? Yikes!

It looks the Trenton to Belleville stretch may be simpler, with only 1 bridge needing to be rebuilt from Glen Miller to Highway 62, (Glen Millar) and from just doing a quick look, they may beable to squeeze past Belleville with just pavement markings from 62 - 37 using the center medium. It'll be tight though!

 

[gweed123]

I would agree with this staging, as nfitz pointed out it's much more of a timeline issue, when the Minister of Transportation said in 2007 they wanted to expand the 401 to 6 lanes all the way by 2012? They were clearly dreaming.

The widening that's going on in Kingston right now is a 5 year project @ $40m. Can you imagine the cost to do the whole thing in one shot? Yikes!

It looks the Trenton to Belleville stretch may be simpler, with only 1 bridge needing to be rebuilt from Glen Miller to Highway 62, (Glen Millar) and from just doing a quick look, they may beable to squeeze past Belleville with just pavement markings from 62 - 37 using the center medium. It'll be tight though!

The Kingston project is higher than usual though because of a) the fact that it's in a relatively urban area, and b) the number of structures that needed to be modified and/or replaced. Just the work going on at the Montreal St interchange right now is pretty substantial. They're building a new overpass, doing more rock cuts to reconfigure the on and off ramps, and widening the existing 401 rock cut to add new lanes and new on and off ramps. That's a pretty penny right there.

As for Belleville, just east of the Highway 37 interchange there's a rail underpass that was rebuilt recently, and I believe they rebuilt the underpass to accommodate a 6 lane 401, so that's one fewer structure that needs to be modified, haha. As for that 401+62+37 area, that area is a complete mess and most likely they would need a complete redesign there if they were to ever widen. That would probably account for most of that phase's widening budget right there.

You're right that through Trenton and into Belleville would be much easier though. The bridge rehab they recently did in Trenton over the Trent River was clearly built for at least 6 lanes, and I believe all the overpasses between there and 62 will accommodate a widening without any rehab or replacement.

 

[UWGrad09]

New details on the new highway 7 between Guelph and Kitchener. There's a video here: http://kitchener.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=475829&binId=1.1147261&playlistPageNum=1#475829

Summary:
- They've finished expropriating all the land they need and take possession of it in January
- The total land cost was $70 mil
- Construction is supposed to begin next year, starting in Kitchener