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Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

in what developed country's context do you have a rail line running 2,000 kilometers while only passing through 3 cities over 100,000 and none over 160,000? I'm not advocating for a highway border to border necessarily either, but an rail line in the corridor is pointless. Due to the low ridership of a would be rail line (Even at 200km/h rail or something I am doubtful it would require more than a few daily trains) I don't see how you could rationally argue that a rail corridor is the preferred option to move people on this corridor, period.
 
MisterF said:
Those arguments could be used to support an equivalent rail network, which would be no less feasible or expensive, which again is the main point I've been making. The situation in northern Ontario really isn't that unique, other large countries have population centres separated by thousands of kilometres of sparsely populated areas and limited road networks. That's not a compelling reason to build a major expressway through those areas.
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I don't understand how a rural, four lane freeway can be considered a "major expressway." It's an infrastructural upgrade to the current road network that facilitates faster and safer movement in these northern areas.
 
I laughed when I dropped into streetview on highway 7 between Guelph and Kitchener, its clogged up like that as well. Its pretty odd to see stuff like that on a regional road.
 
innsertnamehere said:
in what developed country's context do you have a rail line running 2,000 kilometers while only passing through 3 cities over 100,000 and none over 160,000? I'm not advocating for a highway border to border necessarily either, but an rail line in the corridor is pointless. Due to the low ridership of a would be rail line (Even at 200km/h rail or something I am doubtful it would require more than a few daily trains) I don't see how you could rationally argue that a rail corridor is the preferred option to move people on this corridor, period.
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I could ask you the same question about freeways. The answer for freeways is, as far as I know, zero. For rail lines there's Australia and Russia (although Russia is only semi-developed) off the top of my head. Norway, Sweden, and Finland each have lines in excess of 1000 km with very little population along their routes.

Look, I'm not saying that we should build a 200 km/h rail line across the north, or even have daily trains anymore. But I am saying that an expressway or full freeway would be no better. Areas like the north shore of Superior don't need anything more than passing lanes or a 1+2 setup. The areas that really need infrastructure improvements, like the Ottawa Valley, would benefit from commuter/regional rail just as much as a 417 extension.

Translude15 said:
I don't understand how a rural, four lane freeway can be considered a "major expressway." It's an infrastructural upgrade to the current road network that facilitates faster and safer movement in these northern areas.
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Well I don't know about you but to me a freeway is pretty much the definition of "major" when it comes to roads. Anyway, take a look at the scale of construction that's involved in extending the 400 to Sudbury and you'll see what I mean. And at 150 km, it's a relatively small job. A four lane freeway across northern Ontario would cost somewhere in the $20-30 billion range. That kind of money could buy us several new subway lines. Or HSR through the entire Windsor-Quebec corridor. Or a large fleet of aircraft carriers and nuclear submarines. It's major.
 
$15 billion tops, presuming 400 series standards and costs equivalent to the 400 extension. Still way more than needed, but spending $6 billion or so building It I wouldn't mind. build what you can, and build on the cheap with at grade intersections and whatnot.

$7 million a kilometer is the average, dropping interchanges could easily drop that to $5 million or so. If you use significant amounts of the existing road (unlikely) you could probably lower it even further. The latest portion of twinning in Thunder Bay cost $4.4 million per km. Costs vary depending on build out and even for the expensive standards used for the 400 extension it wouldn't be even close to $20 billion.
 
innsertnamehere said:
Photo update of the 404 extension by Sonysnob at SSP.
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One thing I hate about Ontario freeways is that the MTO paves the shoulders and still puts in ugly second gravel shoulders outside them. Why can't we just put grass to the edge of the paved shoulders like they do in other places?

I'm honestly surprised its concrete though (apparently only the northern 5km or so)
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That's another thing I find silly about Ontario. Why can't they stick to concrete for the full length of projects instead of this switching back and forth between concrete and asphalt over short distances?
 
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innsertnamehere said:
$15 billion tops, presuming 400 series standards and costs equivalent to the 400 extension. Still way more than needed, but spending $6 billion or so building It I wouldn't mind. build what you can, and build on the cheap with at grade intersections and whatnot.

$7 million a kilometer is the average, dropping interchanges could easily drop that to $5 million or so. If you use significant amounts of the existing road (unlikely) you could probably lower it even further. The latest portion of twinning in Thunder Bay cost $4.4 million per km. Costs vary depending on build out and even for the expensive standards used for the 400 extension it wouldn't be even close to $20 billion.
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You could be right, but there are sections that have been well over $10 million/km. The section over the north shore of Superior would drive costs up.
 
tbh I don't think that section should be twinned. Border to border is a waste of money IMO, but probably around half of it is worth twinning.
 
What I hate even more is our landscape maintenance on shoulders and medians. They don't cut the grass anymore and the highways look overgrown. I liked the old days when a parkway truly looked like a parkway. Now we just have overgrown grass everywhere.
 
civdis said:
What I hate even more is our landscape maintenance on shoulders and medians. They don't cut the grass anymore and the highways look overgrown. I liked the old days when a parkway truly looked like a parkway. Now we just have overgrown grass everywhere.
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If people are going to vote for governments that give tax cuts, then this will happen.
 
nfitz said:
If people are going to vote for governments that give tax cuts, then this will happen.
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I guess everything is about money, but could it be that in the past grass cutting was relatively easy (maybe even get some hay out of it) and now the safety requirements and blocker truck rules just make it so expensive that is not even close to practical to have the grass cut on a freeway.
 
I always liked the way MTO has the 404 median north of the 407. I believe its grass, but its 5-6ft tall so it doesn't really look like a lawn someone has forgotten to mow.
 
https://www.raqs.merx.com/public/bulletin/contractView.jsf?id=24855601
This one creeped up out of the blue, although the Region of Peel has been pushing hard to accelerate the timeline for it as outlined here; http://www.peelregion.ca/council/agendas/pdf/rc-20130228/report-pw-b1.pdf. The contract for the 410 widening has gone to tender on RAQS under contract 2014-2026, tender opening on June 4th. It'll be interesting to see if they go ahead and complete the Courtney Park interchange. The City of Mississauga is conducting an EA to widen Courtney Park to accommodate such an interchange.

Personally, I'm excited for this project. I deal with the NB 410 during the afternoon rush and it usually takes a good 40 minutes to get from Cawthra/Eastgate to Sandalwood, hands down one of the worst drives I make.

In other news, the contract tender (2014-2006) for the widening of the Mavis Road interchange at Highway 401 recently closed, with Graham Bros Construction being the low bidder. Work should be starting shortly on it. This project serves as a precursor to the further widening of the 401 out to the Credit River. Given that the current interchange is a big obstacle to the widening, I think it is safe to say we won't see the 401 phase 2 widening go to tender until next year at least. Contract info can be found here: https://www.raqs.merx.com/public/bulletin/contractView.jsf?id=24608501
 
doady said:
Check out Highway 17 near Renfrew on Google Street View. It's pretty crazy:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.460...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sSYujThTNptv0PoX0bP4Xhw!2e0

And nearby:

https://www.google.com/maps/@45.484...ata=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sT7eDe_-Ux2_IEYVFndvGhg!2e0
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This doesn't tell you the full story. Look at the street view historical view. (There is 4 other dates)
The newest one is from October 2012, for all we know it's Thanksgiving weekend. The other ones are dead.

I drive this stretch enough to know that while twining is needed to Renfrew, Supporting highways need major upgrades first.
60 Needs to be widened though Renfrew.
132 Needs to be redone too (Currently out for RFP)

I've also found the majority of flow slowdowns are caused by people deciding that 70km/h is an appropriate speed in a 90 zone.
 
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